Paris, anyone?

[Beef Oven!]

No, actually, I don't want to to even look at it. As I said before, upthread, not all Jews are Zionists, not all Jews support the Israeli government, most Jews just want to live in peace, get on with their neighbours, don't want to dread a knock at the door and wish their religion wasn't like a red rag to a bull to some.

[ardcarp]

cynicism protects one from feeling let down

I'm going to have that put on a mug.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't want to to even look at it.

What a strange attitude.

As I said before, upthread, not all Jews are Zionists, not all Jews support the Israeli government, most Jews just want to live in peace, get on with their neighbours, don't want to dread a knock at the door and wish their religion wasn't like a red rag to a bull to some.

And indeed nobody here would disagree with that, and nor does the article I linked to, quite the opposite in fact. The crux of it is as follows:

Netanyahu’s call [for Jewish people to leave France] is so baseless that it forces us to look for the real incentive being offered to France’s Jews. What could possibly convince them to leave and move to a country facing poverty, war and corruption? Why move to a country that is being torn apart by internal conflict – one that is seen as a pariah in the eyes of a growing number of countries around the world? Why move to country whose belligerent actions are partially responsible for the growing lack of security among Jewish communities in Europe and other places?

I can think of one incentive alone: the privilege of formally being placed above the Muslim other. To have the right to live in a country that prefers you simply because you are Jewish. And even if you have never set foot here, this state will grant you privileges over its non-Jewish residents who have lived here for generations. Netanyahu is actually saying: in France you are a weak Jew – vulnerable and under attack. The Israeli experience will provide you with a uniform and a flag, in whose name you can rule as masters.

Considering the vulnerable and anxiety-ridden situation of the Jewish community in France, this is indeed tempting.

[Richard Barrett]

Returning to a previous point of discussion, if it isn't hypocrisy that brings numerous world leaders to a demonstration in favour of freedom of speech when they don't practise it in their own countries, what else should it be called?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well i hope the experience of being there was transformative for the political leaders; one must surely hope that being in the midst of such a spectacular throng embracing tolerance and civilised values had some beneficial effect on their psyches


speaking from a long experience of examining human behaviour i must confess to finding the notion of 'motive' and the question 'why' deeply problematic - Freud argued for multiplicity of layers and themes of 'motive' in any action ... the theory of over determination .... that still leaves the issue of cause seeking for behaviour in any case ... the perpetrators may claim an intent or goal, we may point to their identity [they would wouldn't they] or their ideology yet i am sure no such effect was present when the triggers were pulled [the reality of the crime is that action]

quite independent of ideology one might in my lifetime at least point to Baader Meinhof/Red Brigades, the IRA, Provisional IRA, Basque Separatists, Weathermen, PLO, Black September, as well as the AL Qaeda/Taliban/ISIS nexus [if it is one] .... all of whom found some young persons to pull triggers and push detonators

i am not surprised that out of an estimated 1.6 billion Muslim people some younger persons are angry violent and organised .... one must hope that in the USA where guns are prodigiously available that the angry and violent young people continue in their fragmented atrocities, heaven help us if they became organised .....

not sure if i agree altogether with this thoughtful piece by Zizek but well worth a read


these atrocities were explicitly foretold at the time of the parliamentary debates prior to the invasion of Iraq; personally i am far more scared of angry old white men who feel their potency and esteem is affronted than i am of any disaffected youth ....

[french frank]

Returning to a previous point of discussion, if it isn't hypocrisy that brings numerous world leaders to a demonstration in favour of freedom of speech when they don't practise it in their own countries, what else should it be called?

Which leaders are we thinking of here?

[Richard Barrett]

Which leaders are we thinking of here?

Well, apart from the aforementioned Netanyahu... (I have references for all of these if necessary)
King Abdullah of Jordan, which last year sentenced a Palestinian journalists to 15 years' hard labour;
PM Davotoglu of Turkey, which imprisons more journalists than any other country in the world;
Foreign Minister Shoukry of Egypt, which as well as Al-Jazeera staff has detained the journalists Shawkan for around 500 days;
Foreign Minister Lavrov of Russia, which last year jailed a journalist for "insulting a government servant";
Foreign Minister Lamamra of Algeria, which has detained the journalist Abdelhai for 15 months without charge;
Foreign Minister Al Nahyan of the UAE, which in 2013 helf a journalist incommunicado for a month on suspicion of Muslim Brotherhood links;
PM Jomaa of Tunisia, which recently jailed the blogger Yassin Ayan for 3 years for "defaming the army";
the PMs of Georgia and Bulgaria,both of whom have a record of attacking and beating journalists;
PM Samaras of Greece, where riot police beat and injured two journalists at a protest in June 2014;
President Keita of Mali, where journalists are expelled for covering human rights abuses;
Foreign Minister Al Khalifah of Bahrain, second biggest jailer of journalists per capita;
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who had several journalists jailed for insulting him in 2013;
PM Cerar of Slovenia, which sentenced a blogger to 6 months' prison for "defamation" in 2013;
PM Enda Kenny of the Republic of Ireland, where "blasphemy" is a criminal offence;
the ambassador of Saudi Arabia, which is currently in the midst of publicly flogging the blogger Badawi for "insulting Islam"...
will that do for a start?

[Anna]

Netanyahu’s call [for Jewish people to leave France] is so baseless that it forces us to look for the real incentive being offered to France’s Jews.

I can think of one incentive alone: the privilege of formally being placed above the Muslim other.

Oh Dear, is that what you really think?

[Richard Barrett]

Oh Dear, is that what you really think?

I didn't write the article. It was written by Orly Noy, an Israeli journalist of Iranian origin. I would imagine she knows more than either you or me about this matter.

[Serial_Apologist]

No, it would mean that we would have no notion of their motives.

We could of course find our own interpretations

But in any case inconsistency doesn't have to mean hypocrisy. That's the subjective interpretation of others.

Hypocrisy isn't dependent on other's subjective interpretations, surely?

[P. G. Tipps]

Returning to a previous point of discussion, if it isn't hypocrisy that brings numerous world leaders to a demonstration in favour of freedom of speech when they don't practise it in their own countries, what else should it be called?

'Hypocrisy' is a charge than can be levelled not just at polticians ...

I wonder how many marching in favour of 'freedom of speech' in Paris, in support of cartoonists deliberately insulting Moslems, Jews and Catholics might recoil in public horror at anyone who quite innocently (and indeed even affectionately) referred to a Chinese person with the relatively harmless word 'Chink', or any other commonly-used racial term?

As far as I'm concerned 'freedom of speech' should apply to everyone and its occasional abuse (however advertent) is the price we have to pay for having it in the first place.

Support for this precious right does not necessarily imply support for 'Charlie' or any other political or religious agenda.

[Richard Barrett]

'Hypocrisy' is a charge than can be levelled not just at polticians ...

Amazing, Holmes! But we were talking about politicians here.

[Serial_Apologist]

'Hypocrisy' is a charge than can be levelled not just at polticians ...

I wonder how many marching in favour of 'freedom of speech' in Paris, in support of cartoonists deliberately insulting Moslems, Jews and Catholics might recoil in public horror at anyone who quite innocently (and indeed even affectionately) referred to a Chinese person with the relatively harmless word 'Chink', or any other commonly-used racial term?

As far as I'm concerned 'freedom of speech' should apply to everyone and its occasional abuse (however advertent) is the price we have to pay for having it in the first place.

Support for this precious right does not necessarily imply support for 'Charlie' or any other political or religious agenda.

Well the difference of course - and this has been pointed out innumerable times - consists in the difference between insulting a person for something about which they can do nothing, namely race, and shouldn't be expected to; and something which a person hopefully chooses or not to be, without being forced, i.e. a follower of a religion.

[Maclintick]

Returning to a previous point of discussion, if it isn't hypocrisy that brings numerous world leaders to a demonstration in favour of freedom of speech when they don't practise it in their own countries, what else should it be called?

I agree that many of the world political leaders who attended yesterday's march are Grade A hypocrites, but I'm not sure why anyone should be surprised that they used the occasion for shameless grandstanding & pursuit of their own electoral agenda, since this is their default mode. Putin, who has had many journalists & critics of his regime incarcerated or "disappeared" over the years, at least had the sense to send a lackey in his place, since his own record on "freedom of expression" is so dire.

The impressive turnout amongst ordinary people of all faiths & all strata of French society I found heartening.

[french frank]

... will that do for a start?

It absolutely will :-). But I was under the impression that it was Cameron who was being called a hypocrite here?