Paris, anyone?

[Richard Barrett]

This thread has taken a strange turn!

denying that the Serbians (and some Serbs) wanted the Balkans to become a Greater Serbia, and that that would have suited the Russians more than the Americans, seems to be at odds with the facts.

Some elements of the Serbian government wanted the Balkans to become a Greater Serbia. I don't believe this idea was ever supported by the majority of people in Serbia, which is what you seem to be saying, any more than for example most Croatian people supported the equally chauvinistic policies of Franjo Tudjman.

[Richard Barrett]

I think I'd have to say that that is possibly to say the most rather than the least: that it looks suspicious ... But even if it was - to a certain degree - in line with the agendas of the USA, NATO and EU (or agenda if they are regarded as one) that doesn't in itself invalidate them, does it?

To say the most would be to claim that the state of affairs was deliberately engineered in various ways, which I strongly suspect it was. And no, the agenda of those entities wouldn't thereby be invalidated, but their agenda in general demonstrably has little to do with the well-being of the people in countries affected, and a lot more to do with commercial and/or military priorities of their own.

But in any case if 'many' had, that would be with hindsight.

That is exactly what I am saying.

[french frank]

This thread has taken a strange turn!

We have move some way from Paris ...:-)

Some elements of the Serbian government wanted the Balkans to become a Greater Serbia. I don't believe this idea was ever supported by the majority of people in Serbia, which is what you seem to be saying,

I would have no idea what the majority of the people in Serbia wanted, obviously, but it is the governments that usually have control over the armed forces. The Danube proved a border that was easy breach. Vukovar in Croatia was indeed on the Danube and the ruins were still there when I visited, whatever the majority of Serbians wanted. And the Siege of Sarajevo was similarly the work of Serbian (and Serb) forces. But it was not just Serbia itself, Serbs in the Croatian Krajina wanted their independence, as did those in the northern part of Bosnia. A complicating factor (because why not?). And then there was Kosovo ...

any more than for example most Croatian people supported the equally chauvinistic policies of Franjo Tudjman.

You mean Croatian independence?? I hope you're right that they wouldn't have supported all his actions.

[Richard Barrett]

it is the governments that usually have control over the armed forces.

Indeed. And what governments do with their armed forces often has little to do with what the population in general might want, as we know from the Iraq war.

You mean Croatian independence??

I was thinking more in terms of Tudjman's conviction that Bosnia-Herzegovina was basically part of Croatia.

[french frank]

Indeed. And what governments do with their armed forces often has little to do with what the population in general might want, as we know from the Iraq war.
I was thinking more in terms of Tudjman's conviction that Bosnia-Herzegovina was basically part of Croatia.

Yet he seems also to have been willing to collaborate with Milošević. Actually, your mentioning that fits in with something I was writing in a previous post but deleted because I couldn't remember it clearly enough. I was staying in Zagreb, in a small hotel, where the young man in charge explained to me how to get to Vukovar - train then bus. He also told me a story about how his father, dressed in his jeans and carrying his hunting gun, went off to fight with some Croat(ian) group of fighters. He made it sound very romantic, but it was one of the most chilling conversations I had during a not very comfortable stay. The way he talked about it made me think of the Ustaše. No, the Serbs weren't the only villains.

Well aware that this post seems to have stopped the discussion – but (herewith as an edit so that it doesn’t reopen the can of worms!) I thought I would look for my travel notebook to see if I wrote a note about the conversation at the time (May 2005).

Return to hotel: I talk for 30 mins or so with the young man on reception – a Boris Becker lookalike, though with blond hair – yellow as he called it – cut very short. He made a reference to the Dalmatians, from the South, who were dark.

His English is not very good, so it was hard to get his exact meaning at times. He was neither fierce nor angry, but spoke in a matter-of-fact way about how natural it was to fight for your motherland if you have seen your family slaughtered. He stressed how ill-equipped the Croatians were, compared with the Yugoslav army – his father went to the war wearing jeans and carrying his duck-hunting gun, a romantic picture!

“Facts” – Croatia is not in the Balkans – it is European (the Balkans are Bosnia and Serbia).

Croatia was more European than Slovenia because 40% of the Slovenian population was Serb. (NB. Massively untrue!)

There were (he said) political difficulties with Slovenia which had developed its nuclear energy industry with Croatian money, under the Yugoslav regime.

Belgrade had been ‘Big Brother’, though it was not clear what he thought of Tito’s Yugoslav[ia] (Tito, he pointed out, was Croatian).

Sarajevo – nothing to worry about [Ed: I think he meant if I were to visit], but there was more crime than in Croatia. The food is very good, under the Turkish influence, but ‘hard’ (perhaps he meant ‘heavy’?).

[Edit: check the Wiki talk page on Slovenia! And the Croatia Talk page: Is Croatia in the Balkans?]

[Nick Armstrong]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30905262

[Beef Oven!]

Copies of Charlie Hebdo are changing hands for £1,500 on eBay!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30853705

[P. G. Tipps]

Copies of Charlie Hebdo are changing hands for £1,500 on eBay!!!!!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30853705

Yes, just how sad, insensitive and provocative can some people get ...

However, amidst all the predictable hot air and blatant hypocrisy from some secular quarters, a cooling and refreshing blast of common sense from Secretary general Dr Shuja Shafi of The Muslim Council of Britain:

'Yes Muslims are no doubt hurt and offended by those depictions. But nothing offends us more than the insult, hurt and dishonour this attack has brought on our community and faith.'

And not just Muslims ... congratulations for speaking up for right-thinking and temperate folk of faith or no faith, everywhere, sir!

[johnb]

However, amidst all the predictable hot air and blatant hypocrisy from some secular quarters, a cooling and refreshing blast of common sense from Secretary general Dr Shuja Shafi of The Muslim Council of Britain:

'Yes Muslims are no doubt hurt and offended by those depictions. But nothing offends us more than the insult, hurt and dishonour this attack has brought on our community and faith.'

And not just Muslims ... congratulations for speaking up for right-thinking and temperate folk of faith or no faith, everywhere, sir!

I agree with your comments, though it seems that only around 500 of the 1700 or so Mosques in the UK are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain.

Approximately 45% of the Mosques in the UK are Deobandi - seemingly a conservative branch of Islam, out of which the Taliban movement, etc grew. (That, of course, isn't to imply that the UK Deobandi mosques advocate extremism.) As of 2009 only 10% of Deobandi Mosques were affiliated to the MCB.

It all seems utterly impenetrable to outsiders.

After hearing Innes Bowen on one of the BBC Radio news programmes I found this article by her: http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/...s-our-mosques/

[Edited to remove mention of Wahhabism.]

[teamsaint]

What isnt impenetrable, though, is the fact that the fear, suspicion and increased tension is hitting the Muslim community.

Young Muslims,for example, are concerned about how they are perceived, and feel under threat, through absolutely no fault of their own.

[Richard Barrett]

“Facts”

Thanks ff, I've only just noticed your additions to the thread. It would be interesting some time to compare notes more extensively on this subject! On a more musical (and even more offtopic) note, one reason for my comments on feelings among younger people is the existence since 2012 of the No Borders Orchestra, made up of young players from all of the former Yugoslavia, which is probably at the moment the best such ensemble in the region. Its manifesto is heavily influenced by the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra and ends with the words "No Borders Orchestra is about making a decision that art should represent the change that we wish to see in the world…" with which I can only agree.

[french frank]

Richard, thanks very much for that, esp, the No Borders Orchestra. I was well able to sum who I was talking to! Sadly, 10 years is a long time for the memory, and I hardly remember much of that time, even though that conversation was something 'memorable'. I'm so glad to have written it down. One has to, at least, hope - and encourage - the next, and next, generations.

[Beef Oven!]

What isnt impenetrable, though, is the fact that the fear, suspicion and increased tension is hitting the Muslim community.

Young Muslims,for example, are concerned about how they are perceived, and feel under threat, through absolutely no fault of their own.

I don't think that fear, suspicion and increased tension is solely 'hitting' the muslim community. Other communities are similarly hit.

Young muslims are probably no more under threat than anyone else. This newsagent, for example is literally under threat http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-30896558

[teamsaint]

I don't think that fear, suspicion and increased tension is solely 'hitting' the muslim community. Other communities are similarly hit.

Young muslims are probably no more under threat than anyone else. This newsagent, for example is literally under threat http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-30896558

I wasn't suggesting that only Muslim communities are hit, just pointing out that they are hit, along with others. The problems apparently facing the Jewish community have been well publicised by the government.

The muslim kids my wife was with yesterday are really very anxious, and they are from a family that is solidly middle class, (just as background).

[Beef Oven!]

I wasn't suggesting that only Muslim communities are hit, just pointing out that they are hit, along with others. The problems apparently facing the Jewish community have been well publicised by the government.

I think you are right to mention our jewish community. They are very concerned with the recent rise in antisemitism. And we seem to have become desensitised to their plight.

The muslim kids my wife was with yesterday are really very anxious, and they are from a family that is solidly middle class, (just as background).

But the young muslims (in their early 20s) that I spoke to today are not the slightest bit anxious. Perhaps it's because they are solidly working class, who knows?