Who Killed Classical Music?

[ahinton]

Sycophancy to the powers that be?

On the parts of Britten, Matthews and Simpson? Hardly!

[Richard Barrett]

Sycophancy to the powers that be?

I don't know about Britten and Matthews, but Simpson was the very opposite of a sycophant.

Anyway, the "decision" I was talking about seems to have taken place, perhaps somewhat gradually, much more recently than the days of Keller et al.

[ahinton]

I don't know about Britten and Matthews, but Simpson was the very opposite of a sycophant.

Quite so, as anyone who's read The Proms and Natural Justice would know! I'd have thought that, in Britten's case, any sycophancy would probably have been in the opposite direction. Sycophancy isn't David Matthews's style either.

Anyway, the "decision" I was talking about seems to have taken place, perhaps somewhat gradually, much more recently than the days of Keller et al.

Indeed - and has gone more or less hand in hand with the general dumbing down process, I think.

[Quarky]

Well - I have two final questions for member Hinton:

1) Why twelve notes? I have asked this question many times but no one has ever ventured an answer. Why not eleven, say, or seven plus one, or six? There cannot possibly be any musical reason for the twelve every time round can there? Why not simply select the note you want when you want it (i.e. free pan-tonalism)? (And that the note you want is the next one in some fixed "row" should not be the reason why you want it should it?)

.

As has been stated, he had to start somewhere. However I do believe Brian Ferneyhough recently composed something for a quarter tone oboe, which was played on Hear and Now. That would give 28 (?) notes.

[ahinton]

As has been stated, he had to start somewhere. However I do believe Brian Ferneyhough recently composed something for a quarter tone oboe, which was played on Hear and Now. That would give 48 notes.

24, surely?! I didn't hear it, but presumably Schatten aus Wasser und Stein for oboe and string quartet at HCMF - http://www.hcmf.co.uk/event/show/342 - on one of the Redgate instruments - see http://www.21stcenturyoboe.com/

See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5PcGKojfvc

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VPgWMJiT5A

Here's a review - http://5against4.com/2013/11/18/54-a...atuor-diotima/

Quatuor Diotima are all that the reviewer cracks them up to be and more.

[Quarky]

Apologies, my mental arithmetic is suspect.

[Richard Barrett]

However I do believe Brian Ferneyhough recently composed something for a quarter tone oboe, which was played on Hear and Now. That would give 28 (?) notes.

There are 24 quartertones in an octave (two times twelve!). The Howarth-Redgate system oboe, which has been written for by several composers including myself, isn't just a "quartertone oboe" - the normal instrument can play quartertones pretty well actually, although with less fluency than the new system - but also has an extended upper register, and other modifications which render certain multiphonic sounds easier to produce.

[MrGongGong]

and to this "question"

2) As has already been observed, the common people stay away in droves from performances of modern music. Why is the member unable or unwilling to accept their judgement? There are two obvious remedies are there not: either re-educate the people (very unlikely) or write more attractive music.

You are simply wrong about people 'staying away'

You are mixing up taste with value (but doing so in en extremely obtuse and verbose way)
The "common people" also "stay away" from Bach's music
so that must be because it's crap as well

[ahinton]

You are simply wrong about people 'staying away'

You are mixing up taste with value (but doing so in en extremely obtuse and verbose way)

He also declines to provide statistics to prove the case that he believes that he has - which surprises me little.

The "common people" also "stay away" from Bach's music so that must be because it's crap as well

I said more or less as much myself, albeit without specifically mentioning either Bach or excrement.

It should be obvious that if, even among the tiny minority of the population as a whole who attend prformances and purchase recordings of Western "classical" music, the majority had steered well clear of those of or including "modern music" (whatever that may mean - and to read SG's posts one could be forgiven that he doesn't mean "modern music" at all but most music composed during the past 120 years or so), there would soon have been a massive decline in such performances and recordings which is clearly not the case.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thirteen is unlucky.

This didn't stop either Stockhausen (Mantra) or Harvey (Whom Ye Adore) from using thirteen-note series.

And most of Schoenberg's Serial Music from Mose onwards is hexachordal and/or tetrachordal in construction

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

All this denial about a 12 note scale.
It derives from the harmonic series, albeit modified by the adoption of equal temperament. Like it or not, all music is based on something.

[Quarky]

All this denial about a 12 note scale.
It derives from the harmonic series, albeit modified by the adoption of equal temperament. Like it or not, all music is based on something.

Well, harmonic series are very scientific, and all scientific phemonena involving waves are based on modes, overtones, etc.

But it does not seem to me that because this is an attractive way of dividing up the audible spectrum, it is not the only division that may produce musically engaging results.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I agree. All I was saying was that there was logic in the 12 note system.

[MrGongGong]

Well, harmonic series are very scientific, and all scientific phemonena involving waves are based on modes, overtones, etc.

But it does not seem to me that because this is an attractive way of dividing up the audible spectrum, it is not the only division that may produce musically engaging results.

Spot on
Harry Partch (one of many) being a classic example IMV

[Sydney Grew]

You are mixing up taste with value (but doing so in en extremely obtuse and verbose way)
The "common people" also "stay away" from Bach's music
so that must be because it's crap as well

Yes full stops can be overwhelming for a first-timer . . . But do struggle on! Nil desperandum! The rewards will come . . . eventually. Not to feel left out is the great good thing.