H&n: 30/11/13 - hcmf 2

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, yes - but the word "inspirational" covers a multitude of sins and virtues. Berlioz "didn't understand a word of" Shakespeare (quite literally) but he found what he didn't understand "inspirational" enough to write the greatest (most astonishing, most colourful, most vivid) Musical response to it that any composer has produced. Parra's Music is worthy of attention in its own terms (much more, I thought, than was suggested in Oddy's post) - the fact that it originated in ideas beyond his comprehension doesn't (/"shouldn't"?) detract from this, even if it would have been better for that Music if, in his comments on it, he'd concentrated on its treatment of sound.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't think the parallel with Berlioz/Shakespeare is really valid. For a start Berlioz may have "misunderstood" Shakespeare's work but he certainly devoted himself profoundly to it for many years, as his Memoirs make clear, rather than having some vague idea about it. Secondly, Shakespeare invites an almost infinite range of approaches and interpretations, even (especially) mutually contradictory ones, which you could say is the nature of art, while scientific theories don't invite those things in the same kind of way, and treating them "as if they were art" IMO compromises what's beautiful in them; they are in a fundamental sense explanations and someone who doesn't understand an explanation is surely in some sense missing its point. As I say, I wouldn't expect many to share this opinion, but I think I know exactly how Oddball feels regarding this matter.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think the parallel with Berlioz/Shakespeare is really valid. For a start Berlioz may have "misunderstood" Shakespeare's work but he certainly devoted himself profoundly to it for many years, as his Memoirs make clear, rather than having some vague idea about it.

Partially valid, perhaps - bearing in mind the "Shakespeare" Berlioz responded profoundly to was filtered through the Tate/Garrick adaptations he saw on stage.

Secondly, Shakespeare invites an almost infinite range of approaches and interpretations, even (especially) mutually contradictory ones, which you could say is the nature of art, while scientific theories don't invite those things in the same kind of way, and treating them "as if they were art" IMO compromises what's beautiful in them; they are in a fundamental sense explanations and someone who doesn't understand an explanation is surely in some sense missing its point. As I say, I wouldn't expect many to share this opinion, but I think I know exactly how Oddball feels regarding this matter.

I think that I do (at least partly) share your opinion - the beauty of a scientific theory or a mathematical formula is complete in itself, and I find it more valuable to spend time trying to get to grips with the concepts behind these than to try and find their correspondences with what an Artist tells me are in a work of Art ('tho' this can be fun, too). But "missing its point" doesn't damage such a Theory or Formula's beauty, nor prevent a composer who so misses from producing something worth hearing (all those "parallels" with Expanding Universes, or Fractal Geometry, or cell division - naively amusing at best, but producing valid pieces of Music). It's all simile - an attempt to communicate with words what has been done in Sound, for the benefit of Programme Notes for listeners not neccesarily versed in either Music or Science: irritating for those who are so versed, but (when the Music matters, as I think Parra's does) not so much to distract from the Musical artefact - which (and I completely apologize if I've got this wrong) is how I understood the (ring)tone of Oddy's "smartphone" comment.

[Richard Barrett]

To me it's a bit like watching Gérard Depardieu's left-hand fingers twitching randomly when he's pretending to play the viola da gamba in Tous les matins du monde - while recognising that many if not most viewers won't notice, and that many if not most of those who do aren't going to be much bothered, I can't help bemoaning (while recognising the pragmatic reasons for) the fact that taking the little extra effort to make it look convincing wasn't thought desirable. Wenn schon, denn schon, as they say around here.

[Quarky]

I think that I do (at least partly) share your opinion - the beauty of a scientific theory or a mathematical formula is complete in itself, and I find it more valuable to spend time trying to get to grips with the concepts behind these than to try and find their correspondences with what an Artist tells me are in a work of Art ('tho' this can be fun, too). But "missing its point" doesn't damage such a Theory or Formula's beauty, nor prevent a composer who so misses from producing something worth hearing (all those "parallels" with Expanding Universes, or Fractal Geometry, or cell division - naively amusing at best, but producing valid pieces of Music). It's all simile - an attempt to communicate with words what has been done in Sound, for the benefit of Programme Notes for listeners not neccesarily versed in either Music or Science: irritating for those who are so versed, but (when the Music matters, as I think Parra's does) not so much to distract from the Musical artefact - which (and I completely apologize if I've got this wrong) is how I understood the (ring)tone of Oddy's "smartphone" comment.

As you correctly interpret my brief comment, I was not criticising Hector Parra's music - I found it a very worthwhile listen. But might it have been a better composition if, instead of gawping at theoretical foundations of physics, he had instead concentrated on Helmholtz 19th Century treatises on sound - Cf. Brian Ferneyhough who in his construction of a quarter tone oboe, "found" a free space of one third of a tone (if my memory serves me correctly), which was "obviously" a double diminished seventh, or some thing like that!

Anyhow 5 dimensions are old hat - The Higgs Boson was predicted as I understand it from consideration of M-Space - Space of 11 dimensions! http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...10/3542763.htm

Theoretical Physics left me far behind with Richard Feynmanns work - a great populariser of the subject. These days I am content with the observation that Mobile phone transmissions are encoded with CDMA - which may be regarded as a multi-dimensional space.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As you correctly interpret my brief comment, I was not criticising Hector Parra's music - I found it a very worthwhile listen.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

To me it's a bit like watching Gérard Depardieu's left-hand fingers twitching randomly when he's pretending to play the viola da gamba in Tous les matins du monde - while recognising that many if not most viewers won't notice, and that many if not most of those who do aren't going to be much bothered, I can't help bemoaning (while recognising the pragmatic reasons for) the fact that taking the little extra effort to make it look convincing wasn't thought desirable. Wenn schon, denn schon, as they say around here.

- furry nuff.

[teamsaint]

I believe it's being wrapped ready for a Christmas surprise for me even as we speak.


Considering that many books on Music (from Ashgate and CUP, for instance) are on sale at £30 and more, I thought £20 for such a substantial work didn't seem at all bad.


Where do they get these people?

Well if its anything like the publisher that I work for , they.............oh, well you already know .

If you are going to let people have coffee breaks..................

[Serial_Apologist]

Well if its anything like the publisher that I work for , they.............oh, well you already know .

If you are going to let people have coffee breaks..................

It looked like the sort of writing I might come up with on something I wasn't sure about. "But I'm a jazzer: I don't know enough about contemporary classical music!" "Come on! You can come up with something! It's good to try your hand at something different - shows adaptability - that's what publishers want these days!"

It wasn't me, by the way!

[Richard Barrett]

It wasn't me, by the way!

No, it was me in fact. Nice to see it goes down so well!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, it was me in fact. Nice to see it goes down so well!

I was being ironic - I swear I was being ironic!

[teamsaint]

well its nice to know that RB gets a coffee break.
yes, and no doubt well deserved.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... I mean, I even put the little wink-eye smilieface on ...

[Richard Barrett]

I was only trying to help! anyway Brian said he liked it, so there.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was only trying to help! anyway Brian said he liked it, so there.

... but I didn't mean it: HONEST!