H&N February 12th

[Bryn]

Well I'm pleased to see Syd. (As long as he doesn't want to be a Mod.)

Well he's certainly no rocker, (more like off his).

[ahinton]

In this sceptred isle it happens only too often that the uplifter of the public mind is baulked by a disinclination on the part of the public mind to meet him or her half-way.

Some might say septic rather than sceptered of it these days but, either way, it's a promontory now, not an island (for all that "this sceptre'd promontory" doesn't scan).

[ahinton]

Nurse! The fugitive from r3OK is out of his bed AGAIN!

Too late, I fear; the nurse has already been made redundant and has duly taken her place among the ever-increasing numbers of members of our Big Society who are All In It Together (up to their best listening ears and beyond, that is)...

[french frank]

Well, with at least four or five people here apparently with an interest in contemporary music, I can't say I'm very impressed by the standard of their discussion

[Quarky]

Cage was pretty much dead set against improvisation while Barrett includes improvisatory sections in many (most) of his compositions and is himself an improving musician of international renown. :

Dusting off the cobwebs for Cage's book "Silence", I recall he was into indeterminancy, not improvisation.

But as far as the listener is concerned, who cares? The listener has to be prepared for anything, no matter what twists and turns the music may take.

Improvisation is traditionally the home of the Jazz musician, but there seems to be only a very few and very remarkable musicians that can generate a constant stream of novelty. I would guess that most rely on a significant amount of memorised and pre-computed musical fragments, to string together a musical statement.

But unless the listener has made an intense study of the musician, he won't know whether it is improvised, indeterminate, or perhaps read as a fragment from an extremely long score.

[Quarky]

Again, looking at H&N from the point of view of an interested listener, I do find excessive theorising a turn-off.

"Indeterminancy" I assume, was coined from an assumed parallel with mathematical theories of modern physics. But many physicists cling to the idea of an underlying determinancy, even though they can't describe it.

Personally I would prefer a more down to earth and generic term such as "randomised music".

Or perhaps "pseudo-randomised" - then there is a link with modern technology.

[MrGongGong]

Again, looking at H&N from the point of view of an interested listener, I do find excessive theorising a turn-off.

"Indeterminancy" I assume, was coined from an assumed parallel with mathematical theories of modern physics. But many physicists cling to the idea of an underlying determinancy, even though they can't describe it.

Personally I would prefer a more down to earth and generic term such as "randomised music".

Or perhaps "pseudo-randomised" - then there is a link with modern technology.

If you read Cages lecture on Indeterminancy you will find that its not the same as "randomised" at all. What he is talking about is
"composition which is indeterminate with respect to its performance"
hence the discussion of The Art of Fugue

[Bryn]

Yes, MrG, though Oddball may find such 'theorising' a turn-off, he or she appears to have confounded indeterminacy with the mainly European fad for the aleatory, which dates all the way back to Mozart, and beyond.

Back to Cage's distaste for improvisation. I well recall (how could I not - I have it on tape) his comment, at the 1982 "Cage at 70" concert series in Islington, regarding the previous day's performance by AMM of Cardew's Treatise, that though he did not normally approve of improvisation, due to its aspect of "self-expression", he found no evidence of such self-expression in AMM's performance, which he very much liked. The trouble with that, of course, is that AMM did not strictly have their improvising hats on in that instance, they were performing a composition, albeit one the score of which was purely graphic.

[Bryn]

Well, with at least four or five people here apparently with an interest in contemporary music, I can't say I'm very impressed by the standard of their discussion

Hmm! Perhaps I should not have fed an exiled troll. Hopefully we are now back on track.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, MrG, though Oddball may find such 'theorising' a turn-off, he or she appears to have confounded indeterminacy with the mainly European fad for the aleatory, which dates all the way back to Mozart, and beyond.

Back to Cage's distaste for improvisation. I well recall (how could I not - I have it on tape) his comment, at the 1982 "Cage at 70" concert series in Islington, regarding the previous day's performance by AMM of Cardew's Treatise, that though he did not normally approve of improvisation, due to its aspect of "self-expression", he found no evidence of such self-expression in AMM's performance, which he very much liked. The trouble with that, of course, is that AMM did not strictly have their improvising hats on in that instance, they were performing a composition, albeit one the score of which was purely graphic.

indeed
But its most important (IMV) not to equate "Graphic" notation (surely most notations are "graphic" ? I can think of a few exceptions) with improvisation. A score like Volumina or Mikrophonie 1, for example, uses non-traditional symbols precisely because "conventional" 5 line notation is unable to notate what is required of the performer. The AMM example is interesting as they were also improvisors, though the performances of Aus Den Sieben tagen a few years ago at Wiltons by improvisors were much less effective IMV than the ones by musicians who usually perform other peoples pieces........

back on track indeed !!!!

[3rd Viennese School]

This Septic Isle.