Videoed performance of one of Lachenmann's things

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  • Sydney Grew
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 754

    Videoed performance of one of Lachenmann's things

    His "Double (Grido II)" - a strange name is it not for a thing that lasts almost half an hour - was put on in London not so long ago, but it may interest Members - especially those who were not present at that occasion - to see this video of a performance in Madrid. (Debussy's music for the "dance-poem" Games is included as well.)

    Emisión del programa Los conciertos de La 2 titulado 15º aniversario musicaDhoy. Todos los contenidos de TVE los tienes aquí, en RTVE Play


    (Or if that doesn't work try this longer one, which for some reason appears as it actually starts playing:

    http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/l...hPcGVuPWZhbHNl )

    Grido (whatever that may mean - if anything) is not at all my sort of thing, so I will confine myself here to only one comment: At one point we see a close-up of a string player drawing his bow not over the string, nor even over the muted string, but over the mute itself. I find this quite shocking, since any competent composer should be able to write sufficiently excellent music for ordinary instruments used in the ordinary way. And next they start tapping the wooden bodies of their instruments. The only reason I can think of for this sort of thing lies in the disturbed circumstances of the composer's childhood. Many Germans brought up in the course of that insane era seem - quite understandably of course - to have no sense of proportion or perspective. Stockhausen was just the same - and of the same generation.

    Herr Lachenmann was present in the audience, but was not called up to the stage at the conclusion of the performance, nor even invited to rise in his place. He did applaud, but appeared to leave off his clapping long before the rest of the audience - which is I suppose only right.

    More interesting was the behaviour of the performers. The conductor (a Herr Hermann) was kept very much on his toes - far too much I think, because he was obliged to concentrate upon beating time and giving cues to the detriment of everything else. As for the players (the RTVE Symphony Orchestra), they certainly did not smile, and may even have been hesitant, but since they are professionals it is difficult to tell. They wore much the same expressions during the second work, Debussy's Games.

    Being a professional musician is a curious occupation is it not; one is remunerated for being both adept at the playing of anything that is set in front of one, but also for one's ability to be emotional about it. One's emotions must be evident but not one's preferences!
  • MrGongGong
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 18357

    #2
    Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
    I find this quite shocking, since any competent composer should be able to write sufficiently excellent music for ordinary instruments used in the ordinary way. And next they start tapping the wooden bodies of their instruments. The only reason I can think of for this sort of thing lies in the disturbed circumstances of the composer's childhood.


    According to you anyway

    I saw some brass players using Valves on their instruments at the proms the other day

    doooooooomed we all are

    Comment

    • amateur51

      #3
      Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post


      According to you anyway

      I saw some brass players using Valves on their instruments at the proms the other day

      doooooooomed we all are


      Are you getting any decent drinking/eating matter in Franche-Comté Mr GG? A chap could exist quite a while on unusual cheeses and vin jaune, and some decent bread, I guess

      Comment

      • heliocentric

        #4
        Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
        I will confine myself here to only one comment
        If only.

        Grido II is a string-orchestra expansion of Lachenmann's third string quartet (named Grido from the Italian for "cry out" but also from the first initials of the members of the Arditti Quartet at the time it was written - Graeme, Rohan, Irvine and Dov). The quartet seemed to me when I first heard it to reintegrate many more "traditional" sounds into Lachenmann's musical vocabulary than would be found in his previous work, and this version, which I hadn't heard before, continues that trend, while at the same time cancelling out many of the timbral subtleties of Grido (which I like a lot by the way) by giving them to massed strings rather than soloists... it inhabits quite a different world from classic Lachenmann pieces like Pression and Mouvement... vor der Erstarrung and as far as I'm concerned a less engaging one, although I reckon this orchestra probably isn't experienced with producing the kind of sounds Lachenmann asks for, so this performance might not be much of a guide to how the piece could sound.

        Comment

        • heliocentric

          #5
          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
          I saw some brass players using Valves on their instruments at the proms the other day
          Whatever will these modernist diehards think of next? I can only suppose that cold baths, castor oil and corporal punishment were lazily omitted from the perpetrators' upbringing.

          Comment

          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
            Gone fishin'
            • Sep 2011
            • 30163

            #6
            Originally posted by heliocentric View Post
            If only.

            Grido II is a string-orchestra expansion of Lachenmann's third string quartet (named Grido from the Italian for "cry out" but also from the first initials of the members of the Arditti Quartet at the time it was written - Graeme, Rohan, Irvine and Dov). The quartet seemed to me when I first heard it to reintegrate many more "traditional" sounds into Lachenmann's musical vocabulary than would be found in his previous work, and this version, which I hadn't heard before, continues that trend, while at the same time cancelling out many of the timbral subtleties of Grido (which I like a lot by the way) by giving them to massed strings rather than soloists... it inhabits quite a different world from classic Lachenmann pieces like Pression and Mouvement... vor der Erstarrung and as far as I'm concerned a less engaging one, although I reckon this orchestra probably isn't experienced with producing the kind of sounds Lachenmann asks for, so this performance might not be much of a guide to how the piece could sound.
            My sentiments exactly, helio!


            (Perhaps Grido should nowadays be called Lira?)
            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

            Comment

            • Sydney Grew
              Banned
              • Mar 2007
              • 754

              #7
              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
              . . . I saw some brass players using Valves . . .
              That simplistic analogy falls down even before it has had the chance to stand up. The purpose of the valves is to fill in gaps in the playable range of the horn and make the instrument easier to play. The timbre of the instrument, the horn-essence as it were, is scarcely altered thereby. But drawing the bow over the mute, or rapping the body, no longer sounds much like a violoncello at all; nor does it have any purpose relevant to the intended function of a 'cello. It is, literally, the sort of thing an idle child might do - a sad child of the Reich as I have explained above.

              Actually my initial post requires expanding, because I have now discovered that there was more Lachenmann following the Debussy. He does indeed come up onto the stage, where he reads a longish discourse in the Spanish language. Then comes a performance of his 1976 Accanto for clarionet (I use the spelling favoured by Stanford in 1913) and orchestra.

              The solo part is taken by a Japanese lady, Shizuyo Oka. For a lot of the time she unscrews and discards the mouth-piece of her instrument, and strikes the top of the tube with the palm of her hand. The wood-wind players of the orchestra are called upon to do the same. Then she produces from somewhere a much larger instrument, some kind of bass-clarionet I suppose, and while conveniently hooking it over her shoulder makes moans and wailing noises into the tube of the first. Then exchanges them; and so forth; and even babbles speech into the tube. Meanwhile an oriental gentleman punishes the interior bits of a pianoforte with a stick. And another gentleman, manning the electronics, introduces a snatch of Mozart's Concerto.

              Because . . . this is Lachenmann's speciality - or rather parlour trick: into all his works he introduces flashes of consonance.

              At the end of it there is a moment of great sadness: the composer raises his eyes to meet those of his lady clarionettist in a curious self-deprecating glance, as if to say "I know I am a poor absurd creature, so thank you for indulging me - humouring me - in all this." The audience for the performance was very sparse.

              Well a picture is worth more than . . . so here are five:

              1) Striking the top:


              2) Babbling into the tube:

              Comment

              • Sydney Grew
                Banned
                • Mar 2007
                • 754

                #8
                3) Punishing the pianoforte:


                4) Introducing Mozart:


                5) Slapping one, with a spare over the shoulder:

                Comment

                • MrGongGong
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 18357

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
                  But drawing the bow over the mute, or rapping the body, no longer sounds much like a violoncello at all; nor does it have any purpose relevant to the intended function of a 'cello.
                  The "function" of the cello is to make sounds
                  bowing the mute is a way of making sounds

                  When Sax invented the Saxophone the intention was to make a portable set of instruments to play band music, they were designed to be interchangeable so that if your learn't one you could play the others and they were robust. Interestingly the instrument seems to have found a place in music that isn't confined to playing in Belgian military bands in the rain !

                  Surely you are not suggesting that there is something wrong with playing instruments in a manner for which they weren't "intended" ?

                  Comment

                  • heliocentric

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
                    Lachenmann's speciality - or rather parlour trick: into all his works he introduces flashes of consonance.
                    Apart that is from in the ones where he doesn't.

                    Comment

                    • heliocentric

                      #11
                      Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                      The "function" of the cello is to make sounds
                      bowing the mute is a way of making sounds
                      ... besides which, as you say, who decides what the "intended function" of an instrument is? All instruments have changed their actual function (that is to say, what they're used for, rather than what one individual or another thinks they "ought" to be used for) and indeed their form over time. The current form of the cello, with its extended fingerboard, endpin and metal-wound strings etc., has taken shape as the result of musicians doing things (playing in higher registers, finding a more ergonomic playing position, projecting its sound through larger ensembles and in larger spaces) that the cello wasn't previously "intended" to do. The Sydney Grews of the nineteenth century (there were probably a lot more of them then) would certainly have had something haughty and disdainful to say about valved horns.

                      Comment

                      • JohnSkelton

                        #12
                        Originally posted by heliocentric View Post
                        the timbral subtleties of Grido
                        The Arditti Quartet playing Grido is on YouTube
                        Helmut Lachenmann Streichquartett Nr. 3 `Grido` performed by Arditti String Quartet

                        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                        Originally posted by heliocentric View Post
                        to reintegrate many more "traditional" sounds into Lachenmann's musical vocabulary than would be found in his previous work
                        Perhaps it's his Ligeti Horn Trio moment . I like Grido very much .

                        Comment

                        • heliocentric

                          #13
                          Originally posted by JohnSkelton View Post
                          Perhaps it's his Ligeti Horn Trio moment
                          Hope not!

                          In Grido even the "traditional" elements somehow sound newly-created, which is one of Lachenmann's central desires I think, although it doesn't always happen - in the piano piece Serynade for example, which seems rather ponderously didactic to me. On the other hand it might appeal to those who like "music for ordinary instruments used in the ordinary way" (and being ponderously didactic).

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