Originally posted by JohnSkelton
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Boulez & composer-performers
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heliocentric
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Originally posted by heliocentric View Post. . . I wish he'd spent that time composing, and . . . expanding the horizons of his music rather than contracting them.
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heliocentric
Originally posted by Sydney Grew View PostBoulez was an activist before he was an artist and, nearing the end of his creative road, must be judged on his activism more than on his small, self-admittedly uncertain musical output.
Edit: maybe that needs a little expansion. It's often unclear what Lebrecht actually means in his pronouncements (by "activist" for example, or "artist" for that matter), but picking them apart is a tedious and thankless business for both picker and reader. The main reason for my response is: who is Norman Lebrecht (a self-aggrandising hack who announces the end of "classical music" with the regularity of an unhinged televangelist predicting the Rapture) to decide what Boulez "must" be judged on? And Sydney Grew, in what way is your post supposed to be a contribution to this discussion?Last edited by Guest; 07-08-12, 07:47.
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JohnSkelton
Speaking of picking apart - the Wikipedia page for Pli selon pli links to this conversation with Boulez about the work http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/sp...onpli&DETAIL=2. It reinforces the point about Boulez's preoccupation with shutting off, isolating, resisting context or 'extra'-aesthetic reference. The only possible correspondences being artistic and at the level of form:
You see, in dealing with the problem of form that greatly occupied me at the time of my Third Piano Sonata, I found a convincing literary correspondence only in Mallarmé. If I'd found that in poems written in 500 BC or in Aeschylus, I'd have made reference to them and chosen texts from that time. The 19th-century aspect of Mallarmé is of no importance to me and is completely relegated to the background. He quite transcends this period.
This is perhaps interesting:
You said it yourself: after Mallarmé there was as good as no further formal development, at least not in the direction that Mallarmé himself followed. That represents an extreme position, one which is unsurpassable. My aim has been nothing other than that of transposing this formal strictness into music.
Does Boulez view Pli selon pli as an extreme position within his own music and further developments in his music following a different direction? Or does he view it as emblematic or representative of his music and the place his music occupies in terms of contemporary classical music? ("as good as no further formal development, at least not in the direction ....").
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heliocentric
Thanks for drawing attention to that link, John.
It's maybe relevant to point out that although Boulez admits the possibility of relating/referring to "poems written in 500 BC or Aeschylus", the texts he has actually used in his music are almost all French (apart from e e cummings) and all 19th/20th century. The idea that Mallarmé "quite transcends" his own time (which is of course questionable) is obviously important to him, to an extent which indeed supports your formulation of his
Originally posted by JohnSkelton View Postpreoccupation with shutting off, isolating, resisting context or 'extra'-aesthetic reference.
(...)
Does Boulez view Pli selon pli as an extreme position within his own music and further developments in his music following a different direction? Or does he view it as emblematic or representative of his music and the place his music occupies in terms of contemporary classical music? ("as good as no further formal development, at least not in the direction ....").
I don't know it well enough to be authoritative but it seems to me like a turning-point in Boulez's work rather than an extreme point, a work which sets out his priorities as a composer, which no doubt is one reason why he has kept returning to it (ie. when his priorities change).
When Boulez criticises his contemporaries he usually does so without mentioning their names. When he talks in the interview about "imaginary languages" and "Dadaist experiments" I imagine he is referring principally to Stockhausen's Momente, another large work for solo voice and accompaniment which took some years to reach its final form and which embodies its composer's thoughts about musical structure in a particularly foregrounded way. Some of the solo part of Momente indeed circle around a limited selection of pitches/intervals like Boulez's "improvisations" do. I'm sure that each of these works influenced the other, in Boulez's case probably in the direction of his wanting to define the work in opposition to or as an alternative to Stockhausen's.
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JohnSkelton
Originally posted by heliocentric View PostWhen he talks in the interview about "imaginary languages" and "Dadaist experiments"
Originally posted by heliocentric View PostI imagine he is referring principally to Stockhausen's Momente, another large work for solo voice and accompaniment which took some years to reach its final form and which embodies its composer's thoughts about musical structure in a particularly foregrounded way. Some of the solo part of Momente indeed circle around a limited selection of pitches/intervals like Boulez's "improvisations" do. I'm sure that each of these works influenced the other, in Boulez's case probably in the direction of his wanting to define the work in opposition to or as an alternative to Stockhausen's.
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Roehre
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heliocentric
Not offtopic at all, Roehre, thanks for that link - I had no idea such a thing existed and look forward to watching it later on.
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JohnSkelton
Originally posted by heliocentric View PostNot offtopic at all, Roehre, thanks for that link - I had no idea such a thing existed and look forward to watching it later on.
Originally posted by JohnSkelton View PostI suppose it's a discography of Maderna's studio recordings? There's a live recording of the two act version of Berg's Lulu http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lulu-Berg/dp...3823098&sr=1-1 and a soundtrack recording to a film of Wozzeck http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berg-Wozzeck...3823183&sr=1-4
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Originally posted by heliocentric View Post. . . It's often unclear what Lebrecht actually means in his pronouncements (by "activist" for example, or "artist" for that matter) . . .
Originally posted by heliocentric View Post. . . Sydney Grew, in what way is your post supposed to be a contribution to this discussion?
My personal view, though, in contrast to those of both Mr. Lebrecht and the earlier poster quoted, is that Boulez's musical style is quite sufficiently novel, when considered in the context of the works of his contemporaries.
And while I am writing, may I recommend the two best books I know about Boulez's productions? The first is a little book entitled "Penser la Musique Aujourd'hui" written by the composer himself. There is nothing like the horse's mouth is there? It came out in 1963, and consists of "études écrites à Darmstadt, pour Darmstadt," dedicated to "Docteur Wolfgang Steinecke en témoignage de sympathie et d'amitié." "It begins with a strange prefatory meditation, entitled "De moi à moi," followed by a short section of "Considérations générales," and then three chapters that go into the techniques of his music at that time in considerable detail: "Technique musicale," "Quant à l'espace," and "Inventaire et Répertoire."
The second book is Dominique Jameux's biography entitled "Pierre Boulez," a translation of which by the eminent pianist Susan Bradshaw came out in 1991. I especially recommend it to people - such as one or two earlier in the thread - who have experienced difficulties in coming to terms with Boulez's pianoforte music.
Interesting reference (relating to Miss Bradshaw): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Zak
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Originally posted by Sydney Grew View PostThe first is a little book entitled "Penser la Musique Aujourd'hui" written by the composer himself. There is nothing like the horse's mouth is there?
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Roehre
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heliocentric
Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostAnd very little in it that is other than extremely intractable for the likes of me, the general reader, it must be said - even in the Bradshaw/Rodney Bennett translation titled "Boulez on Music Today".
As for Norman Lebrecht, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But I'm even less clear on what he means by "activism" now that it seems to have to encompass Stravinsky, an extreme conservative in many ways.
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