Hear and Now - 26th November 2011 - British Composer Awards, Skempton's Lento

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree, though basically what Stravinsky did is something different and whether one finds it more interesting or less is a personal matter, and Lento certainly isn't one of my favourite Skempton pieces. But you were accusing him of perpetrating a hoax, which I think is completely unwarranted.

You are acquainted with Skempton - while I may bow to your privileged judgement, I don't actually know you!

[heliocentric]

while I may bow to your privileged judgement

Let me put it another way then. The number of instances of composers deliberately carrying out a "scam" such as you describe is extremely small. One celebrated example has been mentioned. I can't think of any others. Surely therefore it's safer to assume, in the complete absence of any evidence of your own, that the composer meant what he wrote in this case?

[jayne lee wilson]

"A patronising cock"

Has this strange phrase ever occurred in english, literary or demotic, before?

But it wouldn't matter even if it had since it is no male equivalent of "patronising cow".
"Cow" IS sexist and insulting because it is gendered and has no male equivalent as a term of abuse.

I can't agree either that meaning is always "something you bring to what you see". Meaning is also inherent in context and in previous usage.
If a schoolboy calls something or someone "gay" as a term of abuse he does so because he knows that meaning is already there in the cloud of possible meanings associated with the modern usage of "gay", underlined by what it is applied to and tone of voice; he can't claim that it's only an insult if you choose to see it that way.

"Cow" is a term of abuse applied exclusively to women, but like the n-word in a white mouth, it is worse used by a man, because of the history of dominance, dismissal and condescension.

As a jibe at a patronising kite. If her name had been Gordon, I'd likely have referred to him as:

"a patronising cock"

Would you and jayne lee be making noises about the sexism of that remark, do you think?

I put it you, heliocentric, that you and jayne lee have neglected to remember that meaning is something you bring to what you see. It's not (even) simply intrinsic.

But if either of you are able to and wish to submit some persuasive private correction to me, I shall read it with care.

[ahinton]

"A patronising cock"

Has this strange phrase ever occurred in english, literary or demotic, before?

But it wouldn't matter even if it had since it is no male equivalent of "patronising cow".
"Cow" IS sexist and insulting because it is gendered and has no male equivalent as a term of abuse.

I can't agree either that meaning is always "something you bring to what you see". Meaning is also inherent in context and in previous usage.
If a schoolboy calls something or someone "gay" as a term of abuse he does so because he knows that meaning is already there in the cloud of possible meanings associated with the modern usage of "gay", underlined by what it is applied to and tone of voice; he can't claim that it's only an insult if you choose to see it that way.

"Cow" is a term of abuse applied exclusively to women, but like the n-word in a white mouth, it is worse used by a man, because of the history of dominance, dismissal and condescension.

I cannot disagree with any of that. It might be a pity for "those costive creatures" (as Sorabji once described bovines in a far more barbed retort to someone's absurdly fanciful take on one of his early piano works) that the word has been appropriated in this manner, but so appropriated it has been and I think that most of us are already sufficiently well aware of this fact. So, having dismissed it use here as unnecessary as well as potentially or actually offensive, I'll just throw in my two pennarth and endorse the views of those who are rather unsurprisingly convinced that Skempton's purpose in writing Lento - not a piece for which I happen greatly to care, incidentally - was anything but the attempted perpetration of a "scam"; one may as well seek to impute something similar about the incorporation of tangos into the fourth symphony and eighth and twelfth string quartets of his marginally more senior compatriot...

[Quarky]

Music is more real because it involves " ... people who've had homelessness issues recently"?! Good Christ! And here she comes again, babbling away on the Skempton.

hackneyvi has a point in my view. Firstly I haven't found any of the Hear and Now 50 that I have heard so far particularly interesting, and they have often got in the way of the rest of the programme.

Secondly, I would take issue with Radio 3 on the constant intellectualising about a piece of music that we are about to hear from presenters, conductors and soloists. I admire Martin Handley's boundless enthusiam for a Haydn symphony that he must have introduced for the umpteenth time, but in the end it is just chatter. Presenters of contemporary music are in a more difficult position since the music breaks conventional classical boundaries, and therefore they have to search for ways of describing the music, and for describing unconventional sounds to an audience that might be largely unfamiliar with it. But what we get more often than not is 10 minutes of chat, followed by one minute of music.

I wish presenters would say what is needed to be said and then get out of the way.

[Serial_Apologist]

Let me put it another way then. The number of instances of composers deliberately carrying out a "scam" such as you describe is extremely small. One celebrated example has been mentioned. I can't think of any others. Surely therefore it's safer to assume, in the complete absence of any evidence of your own, that the composer meant what he wrote in this case?

Thanks for this reply, heliocentric.

My description of "Lento" as a scam has caused considerable upset, and taken as a personal slur against Mr Skempton. The latter was not my intention. If Skempton had actually intended scamming the criticalia by writing "Lento", having recovered from my intial anger after hearing the work's broadcast premiere, and now after seeing a serious programme devoted to it, I might well have reconsidered and been on his side. I had rather hoped Skempton to be reading all this and smiling, but if this is not the case I withdraw my statement and offer my apologies.

S-A

[Serial_Apologist]

one may as well seek to impute something similar about the incorporation of tangos into the fourth symphony and eighth and twelfth string quartets of his marginally more senior compatriot...

I really don't think so - any more than Berg's incorporation of "Es ist genug" or Bartok's bitonal barrel organ in the fifth quartet. Your keyword, ahinton, (no pun intended) being "incorporated".

[Serial_Apologist]

"A patronising cock"

Has this strange phrase ever occurred in english, literary or demotic, before?

But it wouldn't matter even if it had since it is no male equivalent of "patronising cow".
"Cow" IS sexist and insulting because it is gendered and has no male equivalent as a term of abuse.

I can't agree either that meaning is always "something you bring to what you see". Meaning is also inherent in context and in previous usage.
If a schoolboy calls something or someone "gay" as a term of abuse he does so because he knows that meaning is already there in the cloud of possible meanings associated with the modern usage of "gay", underlined by what it is applied to and tone of voice; he can't claim that it's only an insult if you choose to see it that way.

"Cow" is a term of abuse applied exclusively to women, but like the n-word in a white mouth, it is worse used by a man, because of the history of dominance, dismissal and condescension.

The word prick would probably come into the category of gender-specific, no?

I was "bursting" to write that

[french frank]

"Es ist genug"

I think that applies to the direction of this thread! Please.

[ahinton]

I think that applies to the direction of this thread! Please.

I knew that someone would say that!

[french frank]

I knew that someone would say that!

Never less than predictable.

This is a thread about the British Composer Awards (Skempton's Lento) if anyone has anything on topic to say.

I'm not very clear on the juxtaposition - has he just gained an award for Lento?

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm not very clear on the juxtaposition - has he just gained an award for Lento?

Not having listened to the programme in question, (which I really should now), I've no idea FF. If he has, it would be a very belated prize - Lento was composed in 1990.

[Quarky]

This is a thread about the British Composer Awards (Skempton's Lento) .

I'm not very clear on the juxtaposition - has he just gained an award for Lento?

ff- if I understand you correctly - H&N are running a series within the H&N programme called the Hear and Now 50. This week it was Howard Skempton's turn.

Re Howard Skempton - no one has mentioned Erik Satie yet?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Re Howard Skempton - no one has mentioned Erik Satie yet?

Apart from Helio (#12 & 18) and S_A (#13) you mean?

[Quarky]

Thanks for pointing that out fhg.

Really ought to research my posts more thoroughly.