Hear and Now 5/11/11 Cut and Splice 2011

[hackneyvi]

4:33" is not composed of "nothing"

I can vouch for that. At the QEH performance, it was composed of a man sitting at a piano, sitting forward, sitting back, sitting forward again, sitting back again, sitting forward, sitting back, standing up.

[Serial_Apologist]

I can vouch for that. At the QEH performance, it was composed of a man sitting at a piano, sitting forward, sitting back, sitting forward again, sitting back again, sitting forward, sitting back, standing up.

We jazzers are a literal lot, we'll have you know

[hackneyvi]

We jazzers are a literal lot, we'll have you know

I sometimes wish 4:33" didn't exist though. Not for the piece, but because hardly any of the rest of his truly astounding oeuvre of compositions is discussed in any depth, which is a great shame.

I can sympathise with hedgehog, here. I think I possibly dismiss Cage because I find 4:33 insipid.

I'd like to challenge the suggestion that pleasure in 4:33 is a sign of attention. The opposite case might also be made and the suggestion put that perhaps the people who get the most out of 4:33 are the people who don't attend to the sound around them and need a Cage and a programmed concert performance to draw their attention to it. :p

The people who most appreciate it all seem to think that it's making a point about someone else.

I really felt that it was an attempt to pop the same balloon twice; that the programmer, effectively, came onto the stage holding some shreds of Latex and sold them as an explosion.

[hackneyvi]

That's true
I don't like to think of Cage as just 'the 4:33" guy'.

I sometimes wish 4:33" didn't exist though. Not for the piece, but because hardly any of the rest of his truly astounding oeuvre of compositions is discussed in any depth, which is a great shame.

May I ask (in all seriousness), if Cage hadn't produced 4:33, what other piece do you feel he might best be remembered for? If he wasn't largely seen - by whatever spectra or calibre of audience - as having had a novelty hit with a comedy number (4:33), what other piece would his name call to mind?

[Chris Newman]

I can see hedgehog's point. Cage has become pigeon-holed by the success of 4:33". On the other hand 4:33" cannot be dismissed as a failure because it arouses emotions. Proof of that is 47 messages in a short while. Silence is important: we need it at times. No performance of 4:33" is the same as another. For a short period of time you become more aware of things around you, in you, outside you. The emotions that work arouses are different each time. The work is playful: it plays with the emotions. Some people get angry about it because they do not have playful natures or they are easily embarrassed. 4:33" is about something our noisy world rarely timetables: meditation.

[burning dog]

I think of Cage as the "prepared piano guy" though he was by no means the first, he coined the phrase according to wiki. I didn't know about some of these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepared_piano

.

[Serial_Apologist]

There is more to it than that 4'33" provides a gateway to "silence". Assuming we accept on faith Cage's account of the work's origin, the irony of, and our responses to it, pose several implications regarding conditioned responses when listening, and the state of preparedness such responses aid in fostering states of unpreparedness towards life's unpredictabilities in general. 4'33" can never be listened to without facing its paradoxes, and therefore not literally. To intentionally by-pass the framework and experience the silence in the manner of a tabula rasa, as induced by meditation methods, is rendered impossible by the circumstances of its performance. The listener is culturally "bugged" by the surrounds, the protocols governing concert attendance, etc.: it would be as impossible as taking a medecine which will only work if one does not think of a pink elephant while taking it. One is left thinking of not thinking, etc etc. The piece could have taken any manner of audible forms for purposes of performance; as happened, when Cage tossed the die to get the arithmetical coordinates needed to plot it, by chance the numbers which came up instructed a silent performance. Ever since encountering Zen philosophy in the late 1940s, Cage had made non-intention central to his compositional modus operandi. But, being aware of culture's bearing, not just on how music should sound, what it may be allowed to include, how it should be performed, but on the degree to which it is possible to exercise control over materials of composition, as I understand it he saw it his responsibility to offer materials which liberated musical sounds to be themselves, rather than be victims of the misconstrued motivations of the composer he saw in the situation of contemporary, super-controlled composition methods being devised by the most committed followers of serialism. For him, these methods of composition had been a form of obsession long in the making - one which, rightly imv, signified a civilisation obsessed with bettering itself, disregardful of the natural environment. But, leaving aside the "gateway to silence" aspect of the piece, 4'33" also points up the paradox of the composer's role on another level - indeed from the perspective of any action undertaken, in the light of the impossibility of taking full account of its outcome, however desirable this may seem. As Mr GG always reminds us, it's all a matter of context; indeed, coming to terms with imponderability is central to a philosophy that places centrality upon sensitivity to the here and now and to our impact upon our surrounds (and their impact on us). And so - multilevelled paradox - the intentional act of arriving at non-intention is reached in 4'33" in such a way as to unintentionaly provide one possible means to a desired end which, the moment it is reached, is no end, but a spiritual awakening and a new beginning. That's the way Cage would see it - I think.

[hedgehog]

May I ask (in all seriousness), if Cage hadn't produced 4:33, what other piece do you feel he might best be remembered for? If he wasn't largely seen - by whatever spectra or calibre of audience - as having had a novelty hit with a comedy number (4:33), what other piece would his name call to mind?

Apart from disagreeing with the statement, since Cage was very well known before 4:33" and the chicken and egg content of the question even if it were true (we just won't know will we), then, imo very many pieces come to mind, but also an astonishing array of ideas (quite often developed from pre-existing ideas in another field) none of which I would call comical. If Cage wears a party hat then it's the hat of the court jester.

As burning dog says he was long before well known for the prepared piano (oh undoubtedly a party trick, but one that has fed a lot of composers afterwards).
As an extension of ideas about gamelan - but rather different to Colin Mcphee or Lou Harrison. Many wonderful pieces there, but the extension of the composition techniques into the 3 constructions in metal has produced pieces I wouldn't want to be without.

Now and then there are the collaborations with David Tudor, Indeterminancy and Cartridge music I wouldn't be without. Then together with Takehisa Kosugi and Merce Cunningham memorable dance.

Instrumental music? Etudes Australis, Freeman Etudes, Atlas Eclipticalis are monumental works.........I could go on.......

Just one you want? Sorry can't answer that, I couldn't answer that for Beethoven either.

Edit: Back to the question of the "guy who did 4:33". IMO his many ideas were such as that he indeed without that piece probably would have been anointed with a disparaging "the guy with the prepared piano" or "the guy with the I Ching", "the guy with the weird texts and electronic impro" & etc. All of which would've most probably drawn the same amount of guffawing as for 4:33" to be sure, but that only says something about the nature of Cage's detractors.

[John Skelton]

David Tudor's recording of Music of Changes is on Youtube (first link and follow the subsequent): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOwcpjr9wFA

[MrGongGong]

well put Serial
It's an interesting co-incidence that 4:33" = 273
giving -273 (if there really is "silence" or is there really absolute Zero ?)

Sadly I fear your words will fall on the plugged ears of those who are so sure of themselves

I've never thought of Cage as "the 4:33" guy"
before I knew of this piece I had listened to and loved the Sonatas and Interludes and Music of Changes

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

May I ask (in all seriousness), if Cage hadn't produced 4:33, what other piece do you feel he might best be remembered for? If he wasn't largely seen - by whatever spectra or calibre of audience - as having had a novelty hit with a comedy number (4:33), what other piece would his name call to mind?

Probably the Sonatas and Interludes: his most frequently recorded work.

[MrGongGong]

Chance would have it that I'm staying with an old friend who's Phd is in experimental notation in music ! He has been showing me the original score of 4:33" (it's in a book by Liz Kotz) it has a metronome mark, bars,?treble and bass clefs and a time signature
Far more traditonal than I would have thought

[hackneyvi]

There is more to it than that 4'33" provides a gateway to "silence". Assuming we accept on faith Cage's account of the work's origin, the irony of, and our responses to it, pose several implications regarding conditioned responses when listening, and the state of preparedness such responses aid in fostering states of unpreparedness towards life's unpredictabilities in general. 4'33" can never be listened to without facing its paradoxes, and therefore not literally. To intentionally by-pass the framework and experience the silence in the manner of a tabula rasa, as induced by meditation methods, is rendered impossible by the circumstances of its performance. The listener is culturally "bugged" by the surrounds, the protocols governing concert attendance, etc.: it would be as impossible as taking a medecine which will only work if one does not think of a pink elephant while taking it. One is left thinking of not thinking, etc etc. The piece could have taken any manner of audible forms for purposes of performance; as happened, when Cage tossed the die to get the arithmetical coordinates needed to plot it, by chance the numbers which came up instructed a silent performance. Ever since encountering Zen philosophy in the late 1940s, Cage had made non-intention central to his compositional modus operandi. But, being aware of culture's bearing, not just on how music should sound, what it may be allowed to include, how it should be performed, but on the degree to which it is possible to exercise control over materials of composition, as I understand it he saw it his responsibility to offer materials which liberated musical sounds to be themselves, rather than be victims of the misconstrued motivations of the composer he saw in the situation of contemporary, super-controlled composition methods being devised by the most committed followers of serialism. For him, these methods of composition had been a form of obsession long in the making - one which, rightly imv, signified a civilisation obsessed with bettering itself, disregardful of the natural environment. But, leaving aside the "gateway to silence" aspect of the piece, 4'33" also points up the paradox of the composer's role on another level - indeed from the perspective of any action undertaken, in the light of the impossibility of taking full account of its outcome, however desirable this may seem. As Mr GG always reminds us, it's all a matter of context; indeed, coming to terms with imponderability is central to a philosophy that places centrality upon sensitivity to the here and now and to our impact upon our surrounds (and their impact on us). And so - multilevelled paradox - the intentional act of arriving at non-intention is reached in 4'33" in such a way as to unintentionaly provide one possible means to a desired end which, the moment it is reached, is no end, but a spiritual awakening and a new beginning. That's the way Cage would see it - I think.

It seems to me that what you're suggesting is that Cage is one in the series of attempts to 'start music again' - Schoenberg, Boulez and Cage all attempt this, don't they?

I can make sense of Cage's ambition to 'cleanse' music of its associations if he feels that music is a culture which determines many of its own outcomes. But what outcomes does he hope for from music that is 'liberated'?

I think where I struggle is with the sense of this cleansing and the subsequent music being such an intellectual effort, that the force producing it is a form of puritanism that's quite brutal, essentially antagonisitic, even where it smiles.

[Byas'd Opinion]

As a bit of a sceptic about the piece in question, can I ask: is it possible to have an aesthetically bad performance of 4' 33"? You can certainly have technically bad ones, eg ones which last 4' 32" or 4' 34", but is it possible to say that some performances are better or worse than others on artistic grounds? If so, what makes them that way?

[hackneyvi]

Apart from disagreeing with the statement, since Cage was very well known before 4:33" and the chicken and egg content of the question even if it were true (we just won't know will we), then, imo very many pieces come to mind, but also an astonishing array of ideas (quite often developed from pre-existing ideas in another field) none of which I would call comical. If Cage wears a party hat then it's the hat of the court jester.

As burning dog says he was long before well known for the prepared piano (oh undoubtedly a party trick, but one that has fed a lot of composers afterwards).
As an extension of ideas about gamelan - but rather different to Colin Mcphee or Lou Harrison. Many wonderful pieces there, but the extension of the composition techniques into the 3 constructions in metal has produced pieces I wouldn't want to be without.

Now and then there are the collaborations with David Tudor, Indeterminancy and Cartridge music I wouldn't be without. Then together with Takehisa Kosugi and Merce Cunningham memorable dance.

Instrumental music? Etudes Australis, Freeman Etudes, Atlas Eclipticalis are monumental works.........I could go on.......

Just one you want? Sorry can't answer that, I couldn't answer that for Beethoven either.

Edit: Back to the question of the "guy who did 4:33". IMO his many ideas were such as that he indeed without that piece probably would have been anointed with a disparaging "the guy with the prepared piano" or "the guy with the I Ching", "the guy with the weird texts and electronic impro" & etc. All of which would've most probably drawn the same amount of guffawing as for 4:33" to be sure, but that only says something about the nature of Cage's detractors.

I think - for myself - I could say it of Beethoven and it would be the violin concerto.

Thanks for the nominations of music, hedgehog. I'm on my way to look them out on Spotify.

If he wasn't largely seen - by whatever spectra or calibre of audience - as having had a novelty hit with a comedy number (4:33), what other piece would his name call to mind?

In saying the above, I wasn't meaning to disparage Cage but to encapsulate his reputation in the mind of that modest-sized body of people who constitute the wider audience. All of you here are immeasurably more knowledgable about and experienced in music than I am. I'm a very ordinary member of the listening audience with an open-ish mind. I can enjoy modern music by Birtwistle, Robert Saxton, Rebecca Saunders, Eotvos, Charlotte Bray, Olga Neuwirth and Boulez but I find what I've heard of Cage (so far) pretty empty. It may be that Cage has affected the musical culture before I was born and as I grew up and therefore my tastes are unwitting shaped by him but even when his music actually makes a noise, I find it doesn't speak to me and 4:33 is - in its general significance - a comedy number, a novelty hit. I can understand that Cage's admirers would regret its notoriety but it's the piece of Cage's that is widely known where most of his music is known only to a minority of even the concert-going public. I've never knowingly met anyone, except perhaps SA, who has heard a piece of Cage's music. That doesn't mean the music's no good but it does mean it doesn't mean much to any but a few.