Hear and Now 5/11/11 Cut and Splice 2011

[John Skelton]

The links here might be useful / interesting:

http://ronsen.org/cagelinks.html

[Bryn]

The links here might be useful / interesting:

http://ronsen.org/cagelinks.html

And specifically:

http://solomonsmusic.net/4min33se.htm

[MrGongGong]

I'm not keen on the performances of 4.33" that treat it as a piece of theatre
I'm tired of the people who think its a "joke" they really do need to LISTEN more (Max Neuhaus and Pauline Oliveros have some things to teach you !)
Bryn is exactly right , many "classical music lovers" seem to be unable to engage in listening on a more than superficial level
if one thinks of revolutionary music in history then The Eroica, Rite of Spring etc etc come to mind
it is , of course, a work because (AGAIN ) it fulfils all the criteria for a musical composition
It has form (I seem to remember the Eroica being criticised for NOT having "form" or one that was perceived at the time), it has sonic events , it has a performance context what more do you want ??????

Cage was a very witty and intelligent man, but he was very serious in what he was doing
like Beethoven's music , whether you like it or even "get" it matters little to it's significance

[Boilk]

In general the more a composer, or a particular work of theirs, is put on a pedestal, the more seriously they/it are taken. This is to be expected in a population of sheeple that feeds on what 'experts' dish out.

Compared to Cage, the experimental English composer Cardew has comparatively negligible international standing outside of musical academia, but not for lack of challenging the musical status quo like Cage did. Cage is known even by general concert goers.

4'33" has acquired an importance way beyond its undeniable importance. It's also cheap to put on, as it doesn't take up much rehearsal time.

[MrGongGong]

I think people (and the establishment ) find Cardews politics a bit tricky
not the music really

[Serial_Apologist]

I think people (and the establishment ) find Cardews politics a bit tricky
not the music really

My surmise is that Cardew found Cardew's politics a bit tricky by the end - the zig-zags in Maoist thinking, international allegiances, etc. A friend of mine, who was in the CPB (M-L) in the 70s, decided to give Albania a try. What was it like, I asked when he returned.. Did he get to shake hands with Enver Hoxha? Was it easy to wash the blood off?? "They wouldn't let me in for wearing a beard" he replied without a hint of a smile.

[Bryn]

Sorry Boilk, but I think you will find that Cardew is rather better known overseas than he is here in the U.K. The principal archive of recording of his work, for instance was established by Gary Todd's Cortical Foundation in Malibu. This was before he had his fall which left him severely incapacitated. The only commercially available recording of the complete "The Great Learing" was made in Poland last year. Unfortunately is is not up to much.

[Bryn]

I think people (and the establishment ) find Cardews politics a bit tricky
not the music really

Ironically, considering some recent messages on these boards, one of Glock's final duties, before being 'kicked upstairs' at the end of his stint at the Proms, was negotiating with Cardew the censoring the performance of a specially adapted combined version of Paragraphs 1 and 2 of The Great Learning made for the 1972 Proms Season. Cardew had planned to have the performers holding up banners with quotations from Mao Zedong on them. These were considered to be seditious by the the RAH management, and as a result of the 'negotiations' they were "omitted by agreement between the BBC and the Composer". However, they were made available in print in the then current edition of The Listener. Just so long as only the readers of that periodical got to see them, eh?

[burning dog]

4'33" is placed in the limelight far more by its denigrators than its advocates. How may start a thread which is pro rather than anti?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm tired of the people who think its a "joke"

Cage was a very witty and intelligent man, but he was very serious in what he was doing

I'm, with you here, MrGG; the work certainly isn't a piss-take of a gullible audience by a cynical opportunist. But there is a "playful" element in 4'33" as there is in many of his works. One of the things that I most respond to in Cage is his breaking down of traditional distinctions between "the playful" and "the serious": earnest cultural and intellectual endeavour can be undertaken in a playful manner. In fact, by avoiding the pompous and over-reverential, it becomes possible to see solutions and possibilities that get hidden by the masks of solemnity.

The piece isn't my favourite work of Cage - the MusiCircus after Finnegans Wake or (especially) the late "number" pieces hold me captivated more - but "What's it all about, then?" It's about taking whatever life offers you and experiencing it to the full: there is no such thing as silence, there are no empty spaces: there are just boundless opportunities to experience Art wherever you are and whenever you wish.

Just Listen. And Listen Justly.

Best Wishes.

[Bryn]

The piece isn't my favourite work of Cage - the MusiCircus after Finnegans Wake or (especially) the late "number" pieces hold me captivated more - but "What's it all about, then?" It's about taking whatever life offers you and experiencing it to the full: there is no such thing as silence, there are no empty spaces: there are just boundless opportunities to experience Art wherever you are and whenever you wish.

Just Listen. And Listen Justly.

Best Wishes.

Though I had attended performances at the Cage at 70 festival in Islington in 1982, the Proms performance of Roaratorio on Finnegans Wake in 1987 is the one that stands out in my memory. Merce Cunningham's choreography just took it that stage further into the sublime.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... in 1982, the Proms performance of Roaratorio on Finnegans Wake in 1987 is the one that stands out in my memory. Merce Cunningham's choreography just took it that stage further into the sublime.

... the very performance that drew me irrevocably and joyfully into the astonishing and magical world of this Music.

[MrGongGong]

Though I had attended performances at the Cage at 70 festival in Islington in 1982, the Proms performance of Roaratorio on Finnegans Wake in 1987 is the one that stands out in my memory. Merce Cunningham's choreography just took it that stage further into the sublime.

Same for me , I really remember being there and exactly where I sat in the RAH
also seeing and meeting him at the Everyman in Liverpool a few years before was an ear opening experience

[hedgehog]

I sometimes wish 4:33" didn't exist though. Not for the piece, but because hardly any of the rest of his truly astounding oeuvre of compositions is discussed in any depth, which is a great shame.

[burning dog]

I sometimes wish 4:33" didn't exist though. Not for the piece, but because hardly any of the rest of his truly astounding oeuvre of compositions is discussed in any depth, which is a great shame.

That's true
I don't like to think of Cage as just 'the 4:33" guy'.