Scelsi, Cage and Cardew

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I've emailed Philip Tagney. I haven't tried complaining directly to the iplayer team - it sounds pretty complicated from what Bryn posted so is it worth it?

Edit: just complained via the iplayer site.

[Bryn]

Not so much complicated and convoluted, S's C. You have to enter so much essentially irrelevant information before you get to alert them to the actual problem. Perhaps they should consider introducing a system where frequent users could short cut to the crux of the issue. Anyway, if you want last night's H&N at 320kbps AAC-LC, a PM to me should do the job in the short term.

[John Skelton]

Thank you, Bryn. That's very interesting and very beautifully described. I didn't have the opportunity to listen to last night's Hear & Now, so hope the iPlayer situation is improved.

[Roehre]

Thank you, Bryn. That's very interesting and very beautifully described.

wholeheartedly seconded , it is a simple as that

[MrGongGong]

Great stuff indeed

[Zytnia]

I posted the following reaction to the broadcast of Paragraph 3 over on r3ok and thought it might be of interest to members here.

This turned out to be rather disappointing. The recording was rather peculiar, being both low-level and badly balanced. But more curious was the failure to digest some of the basic instructions: possibly the instrumentalists didn't actually have the instructions, but were told verbally what to do by whoever directed the performance.

For example, the first instruction reads: "All instruments play the low note, over and over, long". The word "long" is usually taken to mean a few minutes: here it seemed less than one.

More seriously, the second instruction reads: "Ascending scales, wide or narrow, regular or irregular intervals. Notes are still long and slow, but there may sometimes be two or three notes in one breath or bow" (my emphases) and that approach should continue throughout the piece. Trouble was, that approach never seemed particularly in evidence and the whole performance suffered as a consequence.

[vinteuil]

Bryn -

many thanks for your #14.

This is an area of music with which I'm not well acquainted (tho' I try to keep up with friends for whom this is core repertoire) - but just to say, your resumé of the Cardew project is attractive and lucid. I see what it's all getting at. Thank you

[PatrickOD]

Bryn
It's all very well for you to sneer at Simon, who has never made any secret of his disdain for modern, experimental music of this type. There are many who would agree with him and I must confess that I can readily understand why people would feel like that. It is difficult music to like, and sometimes one concludes that it is just not worth the trouble to try to come to terms with it. I think that conclusion is valid, even if it doesn't meet with your own view, or if it fails to sympathise with the demands of The Great Learning. We're not all saints. you know!
However, I have always felt that I should go some way to trying to 'get' what a composer is saying and so I listened to and watched the clip on YouTube you posted. I missed the spoken part at the beginning, which I presume was the text of the piece, so struggled to make any sense of the words. I did eventually conclude that there was a listening process going on and some kind of improvisation being allowed and that there was a shared objective between the players and the singers which they all strived to achieve. I'm sorry if I can't be any more specific, but I'll conclude by saying that though I can't see myself settling down to listen to a couple of hours of this, if someone were to ask me to take part in a performance I would happily have a go. It's a performers' piece, and I thought the performers did well.

Thanks too for #14. Much more interesting and involving than castigating Simon for his 'cloth ears'.

[MrGongGong]

Bryn
It's all very well for you to sneer at Simon, who has never made any secret of his disdain for modern, experimental music of this type. There are many who would agree with him and I must confess that I can readily understand why people would feel like that. It is difficult music to like, and sometimes one concludes that it is just not worth the trouble to try to come to terms with it. I think that conclusion is valid, even if it doesn't meet with your own view, or if it fails to sympathise with the demands of The Great Learning. We're not all saints. you know!
However, I have always felt that I should go some way to trying to 'get' what a composer is saying and so I listened to and watched the clip on YouTube you posted. I missed the spoken part at the beginning, which I presume was the text of the piece, so struggled to make any sense of the words. I did eventually conclude that there was a listening process going on and some kind of improvisation being allowed and that there was a shared objective between the players and the singers which they all strived to achieve. I'm sorry if I can't be any more specific, but I'll conclude by saying that though I can't see myself settling down to listen to a couple of hours of this, if someone were to ask me to take part in a performance I would happily have a go. It's a performers' piece, and I thought the performers did well.

Thanks too for #14. Much more interesting and involving than castigating Simon for his 'cloth ears'.

Simon deserves all he gets as by his own admissions in the past he has never bothered to listen to much of the music he makes derisory comments about !

However , you make an interesting point about the function of the music. The Great Learning (and Bryn is much more qualified than I am to talk about this !) is intended to include participation by "non" musicians (I'm not sure if Cardew used that language ? most of us working in similar ways these days would use other words !). Music can be much more than a nice way to spend a couple of hours of relaxation, if one goes to an event where one participates in the music (church, temple, football match etc ) then one would use different criteria to talk about it compared to, say, a lunchtime recital at the Wigmore Hall. For my part, I would happily listen to this music for extended periods of time if done well.
Cardew has suffered (IMV !) from misjudged performances of his works precisely because they sometimes include participatory elements ....... some see this as an invitation to "improvise" or "noodle" away etc when the actual intention is much more focussed...........

[Bryn]

Patrick, I should point out that "Simple Simon" is but one of the several appelations used by "Simon" for Internet purposes, albeit in tranlation. "SimonSays" is another such. As to any suggestion of cloth ears, that relates as much to his failure to recognise mock Mozart for what it is, as much as anything else. His declaration re. Beethoven's Op. 127 onwards, that they are the work of a madman, also has some bearing on the matter.

[Bryn]

I posted the following reaction to the broadcast of Paragraph 3 over on r3ok and thought it might be of interest to members here.

This turned out to be rather disappointing. The recording was rather peculiar, being both low-level and badly balanced. But more curious was the failure to digest some of the basic instructions: possibly the instrumentalists didn't actually have the instructions, but were told verbally what to do by whoever directed the performance.

For example, the first instruction reads: "All instruments play the low note, over and over, long". The word "long" is usually taken to mean a few minutes: here it seemed less than one.

More seriously, the second instruction reads: "Ascending scales, wide or narrow, regular or irregular intervals. Notes are still long and slow, but there may sometimes be two or three notes in one breath or bow" (my emphases) and that approach should continue throughout the piece. Trouble was, that approach never seemed particularly in evidence and the whole performance suffered as a consequence.

Yes, regrettably the performance lived down to my expectations as expressed over at r3ok.com, (though they did have a token four untrained participants). Now if you or JT had been in charge ...

[hackneyvi]

Lord, I find this music unrewarding!

God love Richard Bernas but no music is less thoroughly fossilised than this. I admire Bernas' eloquence and enthusiasm but what his admirers find to say about Cage is always immeasurably more intreresting than Cage's actual music. Listening to the speakers in this show is like having someone reverently presenting me with something set in and indistinguishable from a lump of mud and hearing them almost expire in awe as they invoke to me the invisible features of a cast off, worn out, thousand year old shoe.

A few months ago, I heard a guy at The Vortex in Dalston deliver something similar to the Cage. His red-faced, gasped out, "Fuckin' 'ell!"'s were funny but I don't know how many times I can be expected to hear the same joke told and be amused.

Sclesi? Well, what about it!?!

[Quarky]

Thanks hackneyvi for getting back on topic.

Although I must say I was very surpised after listening to H&N fairly carefully, to read rhis thread with all its negativity. In my ignorance, I have to say I found H&N a rewarding experience. Silly me. Must listen again and find something to complain about.

[MrGongGong]

Scelsi

Loved it

The "one note" string quartets are brilliant IMV

[hackneyvi]

Thanks hackneyvi for getting back on topic.

Although I must say I was very surpised after listening to H&N fairly carefully, to read rhis thread with all its negativity. In my ignorance, I have to say I found H&N a rewarding experience. Silly me. Must listen again and find something to complain about.

I don't think anyone here would call you 'silly' for liking this, certainly not me. I don't see as 'negativity' any productive reaction. But I was similarly surprised by the lack of reaction to the Pre-Hear recording of Rebecca Saunders' violin concerto last week; it seemed to me so elegant - beautifully made and played, eloquent and interesting.


I haven't listened to the Cardew yet but all shades of minimalism seem to go over my head or under my radar or through without touching the sides. But perhaps Bryn's post will open the door for me.