King Crimson

[Orphical]

Thought this board might be most appropriate place but happy if someone wiser moves it.
Saw the recent doc, ‘In the court of the crimson king’ at my local cinema last night.
Informative, v v funny in places and also very moving.
Any board member a fan of the band?
If so the movie is a must see.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thought this board might be most appropriate place but happy if someone wiser moves it.
Saw the recent doc, ‘In the court of the crimson king’ at my local cinema last night.
Informative, v v funny in places and also very moving.
Any board member a fan of the band?
If so the movie is a must see.

Up to the mid-70s line-up, yes, very much so.

[RichardB]

Thought this board might be most appropriate place but happy if someone wiser moves it.
Saw the recent doc, ‘In the court of the crimson king’ at my local cinema last night.
Informative, v v funny in places and also very moving.
Any board member a fan of the band?
If so the movie is a must see.

I watched it recently and found it very interesting, although, as is usual for such films, I felt that it would have been nice to have seen/heard at least ONE entire song somewhere in the film. I also had a few questions I would have liked answered: what's the point of having three drummers? why did the most recent incarnation of the group not introduce any new songs? (as far as I can tell) But it's a film about the people, rather than the music, I guess. Anyway: I've always found Robert Fripp to be a fascinating creative musician, but I prefer the work he's done with others (like Bowie, Eno, Sylvian etc.) to what he's done with KC, largely because I don't like any of the vocalists he's had in the band.

edit: now I remember another impression from the film: the audiences shown in concert footage seemed to be at least 90% male.

[cloughie]

I watched it recently and found it very interesting, although, as is usual for such films, I felt that it would have been nice to have seen/heard at least ONE entire song somewhere in the film. I also had a few questions I would have liked answered: what's the point of having three drummers? why did the most recent incarnation of the group not introduce any new songs? (as far as I can tell) But it's a film about the people, rather than the music, I guess. Anyway: I've always found Robert Fripp to be a fascinating creative musician, but I prefer the work he's done with others (like Bowie, Eno, Sylvian etc.) to what he's done with KC, largely because I don't like any of the vocalists he's had in the band.

edit: now I remember another impression from the film: the audiences shown in concert footage seemed to be at least 90% male.

Greg Lake was excellent but I don’t think he was ever matched by any successor! Also that first album was exceptional and very innovative. Whilst I can’t say I like everything that Fripp and his subsequent line ups did I think that unlike many prog groups he was not content for every album to be more of the same!

[Boilk]

Saw the recent doc, ‘In the court of the crimson king’ at my local cinema last night.

Would have been far cleverer to call it In the Court of King Crimson - both a word play and more accurate, given it spans over 4 decades.

Any board member a fan of the band?

Their early/mid '70s output was decidedly hit and miss, IMHO more so than Prog peers Yes or Genesis. The early '80s line-up (a more stable quartet that was to have been called Discipline, rather than KC) was truly innovative and the music has stood the test of time (just check out how many covers of the track Discipline there are on YouTube). I think Discipline and follow-up Beat are musically KC's twin peaks (if miles from the debut KC LP which is generally viewed as the genre-initiating Prog album) Their ostinati and rhythmic phasing surely comes via Reich and Glass, since Fripp had a late-1970s sojourn in Manhattan.

Vocal-wise, Wetton's falsetto was rather dodgy in places (as it is on UK's first eponymous album - whose saving grace is Allan Holdsworth's guitar playing and harmonic sorcery), and I agree with RB above that latterly there were needless KC excesses which didn't help the music, e.g. 3 drummers.

Have not yet seen the documentary film - looking forward to Bill Bruford's usually spot-on observations.

[Serial_Apologist]

Would have been far cleverer to call it In the Court of King Crimson - both a word play and more accurate, given it spans over 4 decades.


Their early/mid '70s output was decidedly hit and miss, IMHO more so than Prog peers Yes or Genesis. The early '80s line-up (a more stable quartet that was to have been called Discipline, rather than KC) was truly innovative and the music has stood the test of time (just check out how many covers of the track Discipline there are on YouTube). I think Discipline and follow-up Beat are musically KC's twin peaks (if miles from the debut KC LP which is generally viewed as the genre-initiating Prog album) Their ostinati and rhythmic phasing surely comes via Reich and Glass, since Fripp had a late-1970s sojourn in Manhattan.

Vocal-wise, Wetton's falsetto was rather dodgy in places (as it is on UK's first eponymous album - whose saving grace is Allan Holdsworth's guitar playing and harmonic sorcery), and I agree with RB above that latterly there were needless KC excesses which didn't help the music, e.g. 3 drummers.

Have not yet seen the documentary film - looking forward to Bill Bruford's usually spot-on observations.

Thanks - I picked up the UK first album many years ago, and it's always one to go back to for Allan's economic guitar input. Not previously aware of Discipline or the other early 80s output, so must check out.

[RichardB]

I agree with Boilk about the early 80s albums (heralded by Fripp’s pared down post-punk experiment The League of Gentlemen which I went to see at Dingwalls, standing like a nerd right in front of RF to try and work out his fingerings), although the 70s lineups occasionally had their moments particularly when Jamie Muir was involved. But Adrian Belew’s vocals - ugh, no better than any of his predecessors as far as I’m concerned.

[anorak]

I was a big King Crimson fan up to the time when Bill Bruford left permanently and Tony Levin left temporarily. The Bruford-Levin rhythm section was something special. 'Thrak', with the double trio, was the last KC album I bought, and that was a tremendous improv outing. The Americanisation of the band in the early 80s was mostly successful. I saw the band perform the Discipline material at The Venue, London, and the interlocking patterns between Fripp and Belew were astonishing. I also saw Fripp's League of Gentleman a couple of times in Birmingham and at the tiny Moles club in Bath - the wonderful Hugh Cornwell, dressed all in black, was standing just in front of me.

[Roger Webb]

I was a big King Crimson fan up to the time when Bill Bruford left permanently and Tony Levin left temporarily. The Bruford-Levin rhythm section was something special. 'Thrak', with the double trio, was the last KC album I bought, and that was a tremendous improv outing. The Americanisation of the band in the early 80s was mostly successful. I saw the band perform the Discipline material at The Venue, London, and the interlocking patterns between Fripp and Belew were astonishing. I also saw Fripp's League of Gentleman a couple of times in Birmingham and at the tiny Moles club in Bath - the wonderful Hugh Cornwell, dressed all in black, was standing just in front of me.

I think we exchanged pleasantries on KC on the pop/rock/prog thread. Although I came to them early - I first saw them live in '69 and then at the Weeley Festival a couple of years later, and then another four or five times - last in Birmingham just before COVID, with the three drummer line-up.

I agree about the Belew/Levin/Bruford line-up....the interlocking guitar stuff...Neal and Jack and Me through to The Construction of Light is amazing - I've long argued that they predated Steve Reich whos Electric Counterpoint (1987) is often credited as the first use of this technique. Below the Japan 92 Construction of Light with Massalotto and Trey Gunn, do you know it?

Edit. Correction, 2003.

https://youtu.be/nVtv-aouODE?si=2Q12GX1Q_J0myV_q

[anorak]

I think we exchanged pleasantries on KC on the pop/rock/prog thread. Although I came to them early - I first saw them live in '69 and then at the Weeley Festival a couple of years later, and then another four or five times - last in Birmingham just before COVID, with the three drummer line-up.

I agree about the Belew/Levin/Bruford line-up....the interlocking guitar stuff...Neal and Jack and Me through to The Construction of Light is amazing - I've long argued that they predated Steve Reich whos Electric Counterpoint (1987) is often credited as the first use of this technique. Below the Japan 92 Construction of Light with Massalotto and Trey Gunn, do you know it?

Edit. Correction, 2003.

https://youtu.be/nVtv-aouODE?si=2Q12GX1Q_J0myV_q

Thanks for the link. No, I don't know those later KC albums. I switched off post-Bruford. Pat's drumming is fine but doesn't have the personality of Bill's drumming, at least to my ears. Your point about Electric Counterpoint may well be true. But minimalist influences and patterns, generally, had been lurking in popular electronic music for quite some time in the 1970s - Kraftwerk, Bowie, Cerrone, Giorgio Moroder, etc. As for the KC three drummer line-up....to be honest, when I first heard about that I thought it was a joke, a kind of Spinal Tap joke. Not even ELP with all their showbiz antics assembled three drummers...Perhaps you haven't seen the footage below. I'm rather fond of it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkb783rNjO0&list=RDkkb783rNjO0&start_radio=1

[Roger Webb]

....... Your point about Electric Counterpoint may well be true. But minimalist influences and patterns, generally, had been lurking in popular electronic music for quite some time in the 1970s]

Yes Minimalism had found it's way into rock earlier, but my point was the interlocking guitar technique hadn't. Fripp tells of his first encounter with minimalism: he had been invited to one of Andy Warhol's 'happenings' at The Factory in NY, and intrigued by the pianist engaged him in conversation....it was Steve Reich!

Thanks for the links, I haven't seen it.

My favourite KC at the moment features the 'double trio', Vroom Vroom, a double CD, disc 1 recorded live in Mexico, disc 2 in NYC and features a lot of the stuff that you'll know - absolutely great sound....if you've got a BIG hifi!!

[cloughie]

Yes Minimalism had found it's way into rock earlier…

aka self-indulgent prog!

[anorak]

Yes Minimalism had found it's way into rock earlier, but my point was the interlocking guitar technique hadn't. Fripp tells of his first encounter with minimalism: he had been invited to one of Andy Warhol's 'happenings' at The Factory in NY, and intrigued by the pianist engaged him in conversation....it was Steve Reich!

Thanks for the links, I haven't seen

My favourite KC at the moment features the 'double trio', Vroom Vroom, a double CD, disc 1 recorded live in Mexico, disc 2 in NYC and features a lot of the stuff that you'll know - absolutely great sound....if you've got a BIG hifi!!

I've just realised it wasn't Thrak, as I mentioned earlier, it was Thrakattak which was the last KC album that I liked - it was all improv. I have a mini-album called Vrooom which has about half a dozen tracks - that was OK. As you doubtless know, Bill Bruford and Tony Levin after leaving KC formed Bruford Levin Upper Extremities. I think that band was more interesting than what KC was doing at the time. David Torn was a great choice for guitarist - very imaginative with his loops and sonic textures. Chris Botti's trumpet was a tad too polite for my liking. I think someone like David Jackson (of Van der Graaf Generator) would have been a better choice with more firepower and his range of saxes and flutes.

As for my hi-fi, well, it has enough grunt for my elderly ears. I auditioned a few bigger amplifiers a couple of years ago, thinking I deserved an upgrade. It turned out that my ears couldn't take the extra power. The bigger sound was too forward and aggressive. I took the amps back to the dealer and decided that my old 50w amp with its smoother sound is kinder to my ears and doesn't give me listener fatigue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_uTYV7CKVY&list=PLP0IenmeCOtyDWhA0YXsbxVtwExMlyMNn&index=8

[Roger Webb]

I've just realised it wasn't Thrak, as I mentioned earlier, it was Thrakattak which was the last KC album that I liked - it was all improv. I have a mini-album called Vrooom which has about half a dozen tracks - that was OK. As you doubtless know, Bill Bruford and Tony Levin after leaving KC formed Bruford Levin Upper Extremities. I think that band was more interesting than what KC was doing at the time. David Torn was a great choice for guitarist - very imaginative with his loops and sonic textures. Chris Botti's trumpet was a tad too polite for my liking. I think someone like David Jackson (of Van der Graaf Generator) would have been a better choice with more firepower and his range of saxes and flutes.

As for my hi-fi, well, it has enough grunt for my elderly ears.]

These ears are 73 years old (both of them!) and I've just upped my main amps to 320 watts into 4 ohms each and the powered subwoofer is 300 watts, giving 1 KW! These feed Quad electrostatics, which don't actually require a lot of power.....the purpose of such power amps is that at low power they work in pure class A - in any case I have no near neighbours!

Thanks for the link....something else I don't know!

[anorak]

These ears are 73 years old (both of them!) and I've just upped my main amps to 320 watts into 4 ohms each and the powered subwoofer is 300 watts, giving 1 KW! These feed Quad electrostatics, which don't actually require a lot of power.....the purpose of such power amps is that at low power they work in pure class A - in any case I have no near neighbours!

Thanks for the link....something else I don't know!

Congrats on your hi-fi system. Very impressive. My ears are younger than yours (64 years old) but I have hearing loss due to tinnitus. Piercing Baroque violins and squealing jazz trumpets are the worst offenders for exacerbating the condition. I have an old Arcam A19 amp connected to KEF R300 speakers which give me a mellow-ish sound yet with enough punch to keep me alert. I think I'd be wasting my money buying more expensive gear given the state of my hearing. I'm in a detached property with plenty of space between me and the neighbours, so I can crank up the volume without bothering them.