4:33" interpretations

[LMcD]

I think it would make a perfect accompaniment to Hamlet's dying words.

[french frank]

I think the discussion begins to get uninteresting when the responses are frivolous. I can't contribute anything since, as I've confessed before, when it was broadcast on Radio 3 as part of a Barbican Cage season, I determined to pay full attention. Unfortunately I got up in the middle and went out without thinking - but I was mortified when I realised what I had done.

I was looking back over some emails for a discussion I had with Simon Howard to remind myself of his opinion (which I will not quote here). But the OED's first example of 'avant-garde' is 1910. Are there are examples, post 1910, of an 'avant-garde' which subsequently became 'mainstream'? Because it seems to me that certain works, not limited to music, appeal pretty well instantly to a small section of the 'public' but which remain stubbornly outside the appreciation of the majority. I don't think that that in itself (if indeed it's even true!) invalidates the work or decreases its interest. But debates do tend to recall Ground Hog Day …

[MrGongGong]

Yesterday, I timed my performance of Rachmaninov’s C sharp minor Prelude.

It took 4’33”.

It is remarkable when making recordings of pieces with various folks how many end up being 4:33"
I know it's like when you get a red car and notice everyone else has one
or when you have a baby and suddently everyone has one as well

[Bryn]

It is remarkable when making recordings of pieces with various folks how many end up being 4:33"
I know it's like when you get a red car and notice everyone else has one
or when you have a baby and suddently everyone has one as well

It would seem that Spike Milligan did not quite get it. The church tower clock got stuck and 4:32*












* No, I do not need reminding that some Welsh Christian missionary or other turned up in Ireland in 432.

[Bryn]

At least you got the reference re. #39.

[MrGongGong]

It would seem that Spike Milligan did not quite get it. The church tower clock got stuck and 4:32*
.[/SIZE]

Isn't it this ?

https://attunedvibrations.com/432hz/

[MrGongGong]

Now, now! You know totally well that there is nothing absolutist about 4'33".

Zeroing in on that one

[vinteuil]

At least you got the reference re. #39.

... bit negative, though : the number of seconds in the piece (273) relating to the temperature of absolute zero (-273 degrees C)



.

[Bryn]

... bit negative, though : the number of seconds in the piece (273) relating to the temperature of absolute zero (-273 degrees C)



.

I would reciprocate positively with 0°C being approximately 273K (more precisely 273.15K).

[Serial_Apologist]

Now, now! You know totally well that there is nothing absolutist about 4'33".

That would indeed by unsound.

[Bryn]

Isn't it this ?

https://attunedvibrations.com/432hz/

An article dealing with sacred geometry, and no mention Keith Critchlow? What is the world coming to?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But the OED's first example of 'avant-garde' is 1910. Are there are examples, post 1910, of an 'avant-garde' which subsequently became 'mainstream'? Because it seems to me that certain works, not limited to music, appeal pretty well instantly to a small section of the 'public' but which remain stubbornly outside the appreciation of the majority. I don't think that that in itself (if indeed it's even true!) invalidates the work or decreases its interest. But debates do tend to recall Ground Hog Day …

The "mainstream" is a very different body of water from what it was 100 years ago - plenty of examples of visual Art regarded as "avant garde" at the time they first appeared that have achieved a wide audience: packed galleries for exhibitions of Mondrian, Rothko, Pollock, Malevich, Worhol and of "movements" such as Surrealism. Beckett and Ionescu attract theatre audiences. Music & Poetry? Well, Huddersfield events can be a squeeze to get into - sales for the Stockhausen performances in May are selling well - but, possibly, to a different audience from "the majority" who might eagerly queue for a seat to see a Haitink concert.

There'd probably be plenty of leg room for me at any retrospective series of concerts devoted to Milton Babbitt - and for the two or three dozen others in attendance. But was he ever considered "avant garde"?

Given the increasing number of concerts and recordings of Cage's Music around the "world" (Europe, America, Australasia, parts of Asia, a quarter of a Century after his death - including this particular work, still creating interest and dispute nearly seventy years after its first appearance, I think he's "won" any discussion about the value of his work and thought. (More interest from performers and audiences worldwide for his works than for those of, say, RVW. Is RVW [a composer I greatly admire - I mention him with absolutely no derrogatory intention] "mainstream" or "stubbornly outside the appreciation of the majority"?)

[LMcD]

It would seem that Spike Milligan did not quite get it. The church tower clock got stuck and 4:32*














* No, I do not need reminding that some Welsh Christian missionary or other turned up in Ireland in 432.

That's OK as long as there was still enough honey left for two.

[cloughie]

That's OK as long as there was still enough honey left for two.

That was Sellers in Balham, and they'd sold out by 2.50!

[french frank]

The "mainstream" is a very different body of water from what it was 100 years ago - plenty of examples of visual Art regarded as "avant garde" at the time they first appeared that have achieved a wide audience: packed galleries for exhibitions of Mondrian, Rothko, Pollock, Malevich, Worhol and of "movements" such as Surrealism. Beckett and Ionescu attract theatre audiences.

Yes, of course, it's in the nature of mainstreams to continue flowing: the trick is to define and delimit the so-called "mainstream" at any given moment. I was interested in the date 1910 as being the date when people started talking about an 'avant-garde'. What did it mean? Was it the point when new work became controversial rather than merely puzzling?
1940 R. Graves & A. Hodge Long Week-end xii. 197 At Paris..British and American literary avant-gardistes fraternized or came to blows.
And I liked: 1947 Horizon Dec. 299 A literature without an avant-garde soon becomes a literature without a main body.

Music & Poetry? Well, Huddersfield events can be a squeeze to get into - sales for the Stockhausen performances in May are selling well - but, possibly, to a different audience from "the majority" who might eagerly queue for a seat to see a Haitink concert.

And a much smaller one? Which I would expect anyway since this is, I presume, largely focused on a "current" (tbd) avant garde?

There'd probably be plenty of leg room for me at any retrospective series of concerts devoted to Milton Babbitt - and for the two or three dozen others in attendance. But was he ever considered "avant garde"?

Wasn't he? I've just listened to Partitions (1957) and Ensembles for Synthesizer (1964) …

Given the increasing number of concerts and recordings of Cage's Music around the "world" (Europe, America, Australasia, parts of Asia, a quarter of a Century after his death - including this particular work, still creating interest and dispute nearly seventy years after its first appearance, I think he's "won" any discussion about the value of his work and thought. (More interest from performers and audiences worldwide for his works than for those of, say, RVW. Is RVW [a composer I greatly admire - I mention him with absolutely no derrogatory intention] "mainstream" or "stubbornly outside the appreciation of the majority"?)

Yes, but in fairness (i.e. to me and my speculative musings ), once you start extending to the whole world - pockets of appreciation are found. As you can see, I made clear earlier, I was not disputing the value of his work (and I would not joke about it before I was convinced of its value: then, I think, it's all right ) As you rightly point out, his work is still 'creating dispute'; as for RVW, what I hear seems eminently mainstream. Though it is conceivable that Cage gets more performances worldwide than RVW (I don't know if it's true - I can just imagine it being true).