H&N, Sat 27/8/16; 10:00pm

[Richard Barrett]

what the exact brief is for the programme

That's a difficult one of course, because its brief ought to change in response to what's actually going on!

And since a bit of silliness seems to have broken out here, I would like to emphasise that I haven't at any point on this thread given a personal opinion on the music of Colin Matthews or anyone else. I am saying that the inclusion of such music on H&N might well be indicative of a further marginalisation of the (highly diverse) kinds of music we can more or less agree have until now fallen under the purview of that programme. Which does seem a great shame but not entirely unpredictable in view of more general tendencies at R3. This I think is what both ferneyhoughgeliebte and I have been saying. It really has nothing to do with whether this music or that is "any good" or not, and anyone who interprets it thus is not paying attention.

[Beef Oven!]

That's a difficult one of course, because its brief ought to change in response to what's actually going on!

And since a bit of silliness seems to have broken out here, I would like to emphasise that I haven't at any point on this thread given a personal opinion on the music of Colin Matthews or anyone else. I am saying that the inclusion of such music on H&N might well be indicative of a further marginalisation of the (highly diverse) kinds of music we can more or less agree have until now fallen under the purview of that programme. Which does seem a great shame but not entirely unpredictable in view of more general tendencies at R3. This I think is what both ferneyhoughgeliebte and I have been saying. It really has nothing to do with whether this music or that is "any good" or not, and anyone who interprets it thus is not paying attention.

Well put.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I am saying that the inclusion of such music on H&N might well be indicative of a further marginalisation of the (highly diverse) kinds of music we can more or less agree have until now fallen under the purview of that programme. Which does seem a great shame but not entirely unpredictable in view of more general tendencies at R3. This I think is what both ferneyhoughgeliebte and I have been saying.

- exactly so.

FWiW, I greatly enjoyed the Matthews works that were broadcast. I think that they would be greatly enjoyed by a significant number of people who do not tune in to listen to H&N, and that putting these works in that slot both reduces the number of listeners given access to it and means that there is even less time available for the Music of other composers and performers doing interesting, exciting and thought-provoking work who receive even less broadcast attention than Matthews. I do not see that this fundamental misunderstanding of the audiences for the different types of recent Music cannot be regarded as at the very least disturbing and, indeed, precisely "sinister" (not in the sense that there is some nefarious individual plotting to destroy all programming of new Musics, but in the sense that such ignorant misunderstanding - very possibly undertaken with the naive best of intentions - has potentially dangerous connotations for the future of such broadcasting.)

[ahinton]

I would like to emphasise that I haven't at any point on this thread given a personal opinion on the music of Colin Matthews or anyone else.

That's right; you have instead implicitly done something along similar lines on a different thread when referring to Colin's re-orchestration of the first movement of Das Lied von der Erde by using that as a prompt to make a comparison between the virtues of Mahler himself and those of not only Colin but also David Matthews and, since the assertion therein that Mahler was an 1,000 times better composer than either seemed to be such a statement of the obvious (the arbitrariness of the 1,000 figure notwithstanding), the necessity to air such a view seemed, shall we say, somewhat less than clear (and then there was the flack about Favid's Eight Symphony last year, to which JLW has drawn attention)...

I am saying that the inclusion of such music on H&N might well be indicative of a further marginalisation of the (highly diverse) kinds of music we can more or less agree have until now fallen under the purview of that programme.[/I] Which does seem a great shame but not entirely unpredictable in view of more general tendencies at R3. This I think is what both ferneyhoughgeliebte and I have been saying. It really has nothing to do with whether this music or that is "any good" or not, and anyone who interprets it thus is not paying attention.

The point here is surely "what IS the purview of that programme?". Its title would appear clearly to identify its brief as embracing new and recent music by living and recently deceased composers to the exclusion of any other, which is fine insofar as it goes. On that basis alone, the inclusion of music by either Matthews, Holloway, Ferneyhough, Finnissy et al (just to take examples of English composers born in the mid-1940s who are still with us and still composing) would seem to have equal claim; however, anyone who's view is that the programme's remit leans - or should lean - more towards material that some might regard as "cutting edge" than towards what BeefO referred to as more "backward looking" music (whatever that might be) probably sees it rather differently. FF's mention of whether its interests can best be served by airing it in a late-night slot on a Saturday has merit, I believe; perhaps to some degree the sense of "ghettoisation" has to do with this timing.

[french frank]

That's a difficult one of course, because its brief ought to change in response to what's actually going on!

Which, presumably, should be fundamental to the brief. It can't be about what's good or bad because who's decided? and on what criteria? It has to be as much about work that's going nowhere as about the 'masterpieces' [sorry ] which lead music into new avenues, about the music not the composer. A harder trick to pull off than looking into the past, but with people who are - in whatever capacity - at the centre of 'what's actually going on' it's not impossible!

[teamsaint]

I'd think there is a fundamental problem with brief that is too narrow (!), and that this illuminates a deeper problem.

there surely has to be a place for bringing wider audiences to programming which is primarily aimed at more niche or specialist audiences, and for the reciprocal process of bringing more niche programming and music to the more mainstream peak hours audiences and programming?
Bringing the Colin Matthews audience( the audience that knows him just from his CDs and Proms outings) to H and N and the array of music that it offers, is surely a good thing if, and its a vital if, the flow is a two way thing.
Given all the BBC Branding that goes on around the Proms, for example, where is the H and N Prom, or series of Proms?

( One might usefully look back at John Peel's sessions and programming, and discover the huge number of bands that he first gave airtime to, who went on to become very firmly mainstream, for better or worse. and it is true to say that he did also give time to bands who were already established, often reluctantly, but presumably as part of a process of audience building.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Which, presumably, should be fundamental to the brief. It can't be about what's good or bad because who's decided? and on what criteria? It has to be as much about work that's going nowhere as about the 'masterpieces' [sorry ] which lead music into new avenues, about the music not the composer. A harder trick to pull off than looking into the past, but with people who are - in whatever capacity - at the centre of 'what's actually going on' it's not impossible!

There is room - and a need - for two programmes per week of Music being written now (just as there are different editions of the EMS): one devoted to composers working in "mainstream" (a word I chose because it sounded better than "traditional" or "conventional" - I've given a list of criteria to explain what I mean by it earlier) Music, the other to (and there are problems finding an accurate description here, too: "experimental" - yeuk - "Avant Garde"/"Cutting Edge" - "Slipstream"???) Music. A sort-of Hear & Now and Hear & Now Late - late nights on a Saturday have become the "traditional" place for the slipstream stuff (the sort of Music that would upset Patricia Hughes) - let's face it; we're used to sit shivering for two hours in Bates Mill at eleven o'clock of a November evening!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Given all the BBC Branding that goes on around the Proms, for example, where is the H and N Prom, or series of Proms?

Don't get me started - AGAIN!

(Coincidentally, I was thinking how useful it would be if there was a John Peel figure at R3 - someone devoted to listening to hour after hour of demo recordings by brand new artists with a view to getting as much unknown Music broadcast as possible. Maybe that would give us the titles of the two versions of H&N that I posited: Hear and Now: Late and Hear and Now: Home Truths?)

[doversoul1]

It would be good if New Music had an equivalent programme of Early Music Late. I get quite annoyed when the Early Music Show programmes an all Vivaldi concert but love it when it is on EML. I expect the EMS to be enlightening and EML to be enjoyable. I think New Music deserves both programmes, too.

Early Music Late does include fairly esoteric music but it is presented in a way that doesn’t frighten the horses, as you might say.

[Richard Barrett]

A harder trick to pull off than looking into the past, but with people who are - in whatever capacity - at the centre of 'what's actually going on' it's not impossible!

Here I think Jayne's "guest curators" idea could be highly valuable. The WDR in Cologne for example has a series called "Point of View" where creative musicians in the area of electronic music are asked to choose some pieces they think are particularly remarkable and invited to the studio to talk about them in an accessible way. (My turn as guest on this programme featured music by Ivo Malec, Roland Kayn, Annette Krebs, Taku Unami and Kees Tazelaar.) And this is only one among many new music programmes put out by WDR; others include their series of concerts with the Musikfabrik ensemble, featuring many WDR-commissioned works (coincidentally, October's is from Michael Finnissy and next May's is from me.) How is it that a regional broadcaster in Germany is able to do things that a national broadcaster in the UK can't? The German license fee is higher, but nothing like as high as in Austria, Switzerland and the Nordic countries. It has to be a question of will, or lack thereof.

[french frank]

I'd think there is a fundamental problem with brief that is too narrow (!), and that this illuminates a deeper problem.

there surely has to be a place for bringing wider audiences to programming which is primarily aimed at more niche or specialist audiences, and for the reciprocal process of bringing more niche programming and music to the more mainstream peak hours audiences and programming?

Yes, but Radio 3 is surely a service which should have 'narrow' specialist slots? The main problem with Radio 3 has been that the 'wider audiences' have been catered for across the entire schedule - which effectively leaves the 'narrow specialists' with the odd crumbs. It should be done the other way round: the targeted content should seek out the audience that it's for, wherever they are (so R1, R2, 6Music for some things) and hope they will then migrate to the more specialist programmes.

In fact, it's an idea which is (slowly) catching on at Radio 3: contemporary music dotted round the schedule. Steve Reich on Breakfast this morning, Sally Beamish on Friday Breakfast, John Cage on Thursday. It should be a sort of wave movement over the whole of BBC Radio, with Radio 3 being at the end of the development, and H & N free to concentrate on the most avant garde/experimental.

[teamsaint]

Yes, but Radio 3 is surely a service which should have 'narrow' specialist slots? The main problem with Radio 3 has been that the 'wider audiences' have been catered for across the entire schedule - which effectively leaves the 'narrow specialists' with the odd crumbs. It should be done the other way round: the targeted content should seek out the audience that it's for, wherever they are (so R1, R2, 6Music for some things) and hope they will then migrate to the more specialist programmes.

In fact, it's an idea which is (slowly) catching on at Radio 3: contemporary music dotted round the schedule. Steve Reich on Breakfast this morning, Sally Beamish on Friday Breakfast, John Cage on Thursday. It should be a sort of wave movement over the whole of BBC Radio, with Radio 3 being at the end of the development, and H & N free to concentrate on the most avant garde/experimental.

My point was really just that " narrow specialist slots " can work better if thoughtfully integrated with other parts of the programming, as, for example, John Peel's show was, when following the more mainstream Andy Kershaw show, where a mutual strand of World Music programming developed.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My point was really just that " narrow specialist slots " can work better if thoughtfully integrated with other parts of the programming, as, for example, John Peel's show was, when following the more mainstream Andy Kershaw show, where a mutual strand of World Music programming developed.

An excellent idea, ts; links between contemporary, early, and world Musics offer such rich opportunities for exciting programming. I wonder if there is the funding available to R3 for such joined-up thinking to be put into practice regularly.

[Bryn]

... sounds like a very feeble composer trying to copy early Glass ...

I would dare to disagree. To me it was "a very feeble (enfeebled?) composer trying to copy early Glass", though some of it not that early. I was somewhat reminded of his similarly feeble eco-opera, The Making of the Representative for Planet 8, (no slight on Doris Lessing intended).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would dare to disagree. To me it was "a very feeble (enfeebled?) composer trying to copy early Glass", though some of it not that early. I was somewhat reminded of his similarly feeble eco-opera, The Making of the Representative for Planet 8, (no slight on Doris Lessing intended).