Music has no gender?

[The_Student]

... to which in my opinion "today's postmodern composer" is capitulating, when the most important thing today's artists have to offer is an expression of the possibility of imaginative freedom - not just the "freedom" one has to choose between preexistent styles which is the freedom of the supermarket - through a music which somehow embodies the idea that "anything is possible" together with the discipline to respond to that infinite potential (rather than wallowing in it).

very interesting post! makes me wonder though- this would suggest a type hierarchy, where, the composer assumes a sense of control over the listener. by offering "imaginative freedom"-are they really offering this? or are they offering what the composer, themselves believe to exhibit the idea of freedom-certainly it means different things to different people? But somehow it is managed. what I imagine, or think of when I listen to a piece of music is very different to another person. So, does that mean, that the piece is written in such a way that enables you to enter a type of surreal world that is personal but functions in the same way for everyone? if that makes any sense!

[MrGongGong]

ok, so what car do you drive? what brand of coffee do you drink? what do you do that completely un-normal?

You seemed to be suggesting that "everyone" drives the same car, goes on holiday to the same place and that we are somehow becoming "emulsified" !
There are other possibilities, that's all

(My wife and I went to hear "Sonic Pulses" for our Wedding anniversary.... will that do for "un-normal" ? )

[The_Student]

You seemed to be suggesting that "everyone" drives the same car, goes on holiday to the same place and that we are somehow becoming "emulsified" !
There are other possibilities, that's all

(My wife and I went to hear "Sonic Pulses" for our Wedding anniversary.... will that do for "un-normal" ? )

Yes, everyone either drives a French, American, German, Japanese etc etc car with a choice of a few manufacturers and models. Everyone has a choice of holiday- Mediterranean, Thailand, the Far East etc etc.

By now, everyone is part of some sort of system that is next to impossible to leave- you leave one you enter another.

Try to define 'normal'- then we can talk about your anniversary. But you might find that it is a relatively standard act now within the alternative system

[ahinton]

... to which in my opinion "today's postmodern composer" is capitulating, when the most important thing today's artists have to offer is an expression of the possibility of imaginative freedom - not just the "freedom" one has to choose between preexistent styles which is the freedom of the supermarket - through a music which somehow embodies the idea that "anything is possible" together with the discipline to respond to that infinite potential (rather than wallowing in it).

OK, so who are today's "postmodern composers"? What does that term mean? Are there any such things? Aren't we all caught in some kind of time-warp, whatever we do and whichever way we approach what we try to do? Indeed, haven't we manufactured that time-warp and aren't we accordingly in perceived (un)control thereof?

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, everyone either drives a French, American, German, Japanese etc etc car with a choice of a few manufacturers and models. Everyone has a choice of holiday- Mediterranean, Thailand, the Far East etc etc.

By now, everyone is part of some sort of system that is next to impossible to leave- you leave one you enter another.

Try to define 'normal'- then we can talk about your anniversary. But you might find that it is a relatively standard act now within the alternative system

What he hasn’t told you is he drives a Volvo (FFS!) and his favourite whisky is a DIAGEO-owned aspirational brand. And I’m not kidding.

[Quarky]

Perhaps the most difficult aspect of this Forum is knowing when to keep silent. However before this thread goes cold, we seem to be entering the worlds of neuroscience and modern psychology, subjects of which I know equally little, as the matters discussed above. However there is a reputable body of science which states women's brains and minds are different, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the compositional processes in a female mind are different from those of a male, even if it is impossible to distinguish in the end result.

Can't guarantee the accuracy of the following quote from a Web site:

1. Men and women use different parts of the brain to handle the same task.

2. A woman’s brain is 10% smaller than a man’s. However, it does not affect the level of intelligence.

3. With age, the male brain shrinks faster than the female.

4. Women are more capable of managing several information flows simultaneously, while men get irritated when they have to do several things at the same time. But…

5. Men faster absorb information, so they are more responsive.

6. Women tend to remember all the details, while men usually keep in mind only the main point.

7. If a man is lost, he will remember the direction and the traveled distance, and a woman will remember reference points on the road. Similarly, a man driver keeps in mind the numeric value of the distance, while a woman driver usually remembers different road signs and shop windows.


8. Yes, everyone was waiting for this topic, so here it is: men think about sex every minute, and women – every couple of days. Of course, it is not true for maniacs and people with different psychological disorders.

9. Men are better at exact sciences, and women – at social sciences.

10. Men and women respond differently to the harsh and irritating sounds.

11. Women are more talkative. The work of the pleasure center of the brain is responsible for his sociability. So, the conversation brings pleasure to them.

12. Women use nearly three times as many words a day as men.

13. To establish confidence with a woman, a 20 seconds hug is enough.

14. Men and women have different perception of humor. Men are more concentrated on a cheerful outcome of a story or a show, while women enjoy the subtleties of humor in general and the language of presentation.

15. Women are by nature more sociable than men who are aggressively competitive. That is why men often fight. For the same reason women get angry by the fact that men cannot support a long conversation with them.

16. Male ear is weaker than female. That is why women can hear subtle intonations and men – not always. Also in terms of tactile perception men lose.

17. Women have better developed organizational skills.

18. If a man sees a ball on the road, he will probably hit it, while a woman is likely to pick it up. Thus a different natural destination of men and women shows.

19. Female brain heats more, as more glucose is “burnt”.

20. Men perceive speech with logic, so that they hear exactly what is said, while women use their intuition and emotion, so they see hints and hidden meanings everywhere.

[doversoul1]

The problem with these observations is that ‘men’ and ‘women’ in almost all these studies, or more precisely their brains, have been thoroughly socialised and have developed life skills they need for their daily lives / jobs. Studies into behaviours of very young children or animals may tell something about the difference in male and female brains but then that can’t tell much about how brain works in the field of art.

From the similar discussions we’ve had on the forum, it seems that gender question mainly occurs when the work of art (music, literature and the rest) comes to contact with the world, i.e. publishing. Harry Potter may have had a very different publishing record if the author had used her real (full?) name. Well, so they say.

[Richard Barrett]

The problem with these observations

Each one of them is questionable in its own way, and moreover each draws a massive generalisation from what must surely be a huge spread of observed "values" for the "variables" in which other differences between people apart from gender (and including individual differences!) may also play as large a role if not larger, as you've already implied. So I would say they can be disregarded as any kind of reliable indicator of "what men and women are like". But however that may be, none of them deal with the actual question posed here which boils down to whether it's possible to tell the gender of someone's musical composition from hearing it. And nobody as far as I can see has offered any evidence that it is. Case closed surely.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - people (such as myself) who very little about neuroscience have to rely upon the trivialized/sensationalist "summaries" of genuine scientific research that appear in popular articles. In the anxiety not to bore readers, such articles blind us with pseudoscience, so that what is left is little better than horoscopes (if your star sign is Leo, then you will be generally generous and warm-hearted, but with moments of selfishness that concern you - just like everybody in the other eleven signs). Who is responsible for this "reputable body of science", and (more pertinently) what exactly did they say that becomes "translated" into (for example) If a man is lost, he will remember the direction and the traveled distance, and a woman will remember reference points on the road. Similarly, a man driver keeps in mind the numeric value of the distance, while a woman driver usually remembers different road signs and shop windows? (And how long did it take him to write that sentence if he kept thinking about sex every other minute?)

Particularly amusing was

Women use nearly three times as many words a day as men.

... not on this Forum, they don't!

[Bryn]

Re. the statistical curves relating to brain differences between the sexes: "The bells, the bells, the overlapping bells". Godunov for Boris (or Doris).

[ahinton]

Each one of them is questionable in its own way, and moreover each draws a massive generalisation from what must surely be a huge spread of observed "values" for the "variables" in which other differences between people apart from gender (and including individual differences!) may also play as large a role if not larger, as you've already implied. So I would say they can be disregarded as any kind of reliable indicator of "what men and women are like". But however that may be, none of them deal with the actual question posed here which boils down to whether it's possible to tell the gender of someone's musical composition from hearing it. And nobody as far as I can see has offered any evidence that it is. Case closed surely.

For how long have I been saying this very thing? I can't even remember! But of course it's correct and there's absolutely not a scrap of evidence to suggest that it might be possible to do this.