Music has no gender?

[ahinton]

Isn't music feminine?
Die Musik, la musique, la musica, la música, to give just German, French, Italian, and Spanish.

The noun "music", perhaps, but not "music" itself! What the so-called "feminist musicologists" would make of that, though, I have less than no idea, so I'll have to search out a well footnoted academic dissertation by one of them entitled La femme armée: Musical feminism from Hildegard of Bingham to Judith of Bingen or some such in order not to find out (and note the egregious academicolon in the title).

[The_Student]

And "rules" and "freedom", like "masculine" and "feminine", is another pair of false oppositions that creates problems when we try to regard the Arts through such distorting lenses. It seems as if some people think that "rules" were created by some anonymous authority and then imposed upon hapless composers against their will, only for the Great Composers to come along and break them (thus showing that they are Great Composers)! There are no Rules: there have only ever been algorithms ("recipes", if you prefer - as in Schoenberg's "Method of composing with Twelve Notes Related Only to Each Other", which is so carelessly reduced - even on Radio Three; even by lecturers at UK Universities - to "The Twelve-Note System"). If you wish your Music to sound like this, you have to follow these procedures - if you want it to sound differently, you have to follow other procedures. These are no more (and/or no less) "Rules" than telling a painter that to get a particular shade of orange s/he has to use this particular blend of red, yellow, plus whatever other shades of blue/black. Beethoven/Wagner/Debussy/Stravinsky didn't "break all the rules" (as I heard a R3 announcer declare the other day) - they created their own, new/adapted rules from which they were able to control the presentation/communication of the sounds to the performers and listeners. It is no different today - if you want the Music to sound this way, you have to follow these procedures and conventions and avoid those; if you want it to sound this other way, then these other procedures/conventions and not those. These are no more/no less "Rules" than following a recipe in order to make a favourite dish taste the same way each time. If you want your Music to sound different, you have to create new "rules" - Art/communication doesn't work without such "rules"; it doesn't communicate if it's just a sequence of events that merely "break" existing rules/conventions and give nothing new.

And "free" is another abused word - apart from research suggesting that "free-will" is a mythic conception that we've created to make ourselves feel less afraid, everything has a moral, intellectual, emotional, "spiritual" "Cost". The greater the choices available to us, the more we become responsible for the choices we make - and, perhaps, the more we have to discard.

Hah! Quite an intense subject this gender in music! I would just like to add, that though I find it fascinating, I am by no means a raging feminist. I just find it very interesting how it's such a sour subject area.

what you say is remarkable and well studied. Is this an area you focus on?

[The_Student]

All these comments are very helpful, It gives such a nice overview on opinions on the matter!

[The_Student]

Quite fascinating, the concept of 'free' composition. Is it even possible to compose a coherent piece of music, that has been completely stripped of previous influence or theoretical procedure?

I have actually found, personally, that music composed by individuals such as Utvoltsgaya and Saariaho to be full of fiery energy. A somewhat outburst of statement and empowerment?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Quite fascinating, the concept of 'free' composition. Is it even possible to compose a coherent piece of music, that has been completely stripped of previous influence or theoretical procedure?

"Completely"? The sheer fact of using sound ... The work of La Monte Young is a useful starting point for a consideration of such ideas. But remember that, as a species, humans like to make patterns - even imposing such patterns on phenomena when these aren't necessarily there in those phenomena (a group of stars that look randomly grouped from our perspective are given "shape" - a hunter, a bull, a crab, a bear with a plough in its bottom ... )

Regardless of the composer's intentions, the structuring of a piece of Music is also an active matter for the listener. If I decide to listen to the "arbitrary" sounds around me (as I frequently do) I create a structured Musical experience - with many of the associations and sequence of pleasure/displeasure/boredom/delight that I would get from hearing a piece of "proper" Music for the first time. (In the same way that when we look at our environment, it can be as moving as looking at a painting/sculpture/photograph. Brimham Rocks wasn't "created" with any intention of giving pleasure or providing a life-enhancing spectacle for human beings - but humans are profoundly moved when they encounter it.


And, yes - when we encounter Music as powerfully successful as Saariaho, or Ustvolskaya, or Lutyens, or Hildegard, or Saunders (or Lachenmann, or Sciarrino, or Clementi, or Schubert, or Ferneyhough ...... ) then it is empowering (if we respond positively to it) - for listener, performer as well as composer.

[The_Student]

"Completely"? The sheer fact of using sound ... The work of La Monte Young is a useful starting point for a consideration of such ideas. But remember that, as a species, humans like to make patterns - even imposing such patterns on phenomena when these aren't necessarily there in those phenomena (a group of stars that look randomly grouped from our perspective are given "shape" - a hunter, a bull, a crab, a bear with a plough in its bottom ... )

Regardless of the composer's intentions, the structuring of a piece of Music is also an active matter for the listener. If I decide to listen to the "arbitrary" sounds around me (as I frequently do) I create a structured Musical experience - with many of the associations and sequence of pleasure/displeasure/boredom/delight that I would get from hearing a piece of "proper" Music for the first time. (In the same way that when we look at our environment, it can be as moving as looking at a painting/sculpture/photograph. Brimham Rocks wasn't "created" with any intention of giving pleasure or providing a life-enhancing spectacle for human beings - but humans are profoundly moved when they encounter it.


And, yes - when we encounter Music as powerfully successful as Saariaho, or Ustvolskaya, or Lutyens, or Hildegard, or Saunders (or Lachenmann, or Sciarrino, or Clementi, or Schubert, or Ferneyhough ...... ) then it is empowering (if we respond positively to it) - for listener, performer as well as composer.

:)

So let's take Ligeti's musica ricercata as an example. Anticipation is Constantly built but barely resolved. What is the structure and pattern? What makes it so remarkable in the absense of repetition and closure?

[BBMmk2]

Gender in music? p[erish the thought! But yes, but again, I say, music is music whatever you are!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So let's take Ligeti's musica ricercata as an example. Anticipation is Constantly built but barely resolved. What is the structure and pattern? What makes it so remarkable in the absense of repetition and closure?

It's not a work I know very well - but isn't the "anticipation constantly built but barely resolved" a precise description of "the structure and pattern"?

[BBMmk2]

It's not a work I know very well - but isn't the "anticipation constantly built but barely resolved" a precise description of "the structure and pattern"?

Would some music sound as though by a female composer?

[The_Student]

It's not a work I know very well - but isn't the "anticipation constantly built but barely resolved" a precise description of "the structure and pattern"?

But, would structure not denote a system? Anticipation in music to me suggests subjective consideration. So how are they connected? And pattern to me suggests some sort of repetition, what if this is not present? Can there be a pattern?

[Richard Barrett]

Surely it's clear that some music (& some literature, some visual art, some etc. etc.) is quite audibly "gendered" and some isn't? Since Musica ricercata has been mentioned, would anyone know whether it was written by a man or a woman if they hadn't been informed? You would know, on the other hand, with some background in 20th century music, that it was written by someone with a close knowledge of Bartók's Mikrokosmos.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But, would structure not denote a system?

Not necessarily - "structure" is a verb as well as a noun; it is something that is done (by the composer and by the active, attentive listener), rather than a template to be "filled in". A "constantly built" (your word) sequence of "barely resolved anticipations" is a "structure". (Whether this is what the composer intended - and again, I cannot comment in detail as I don't know the work - is another matter: if this is how you are perceiving it, this is how you are structuring it.)

Anticipation in music to me suggests subjective consideration. So how are they connected?

How are what connected? (Or, if you prefer, they are connected in you - in your perception of the Music you are hearing.)

And pattern to me suggests some sort of repetition, what if this is not present? Can there be a pattern?

Good point - but if one section of "barely resolved anticipation" is succeeded by another and then another (as you suggest by your "constantly built"), then there is "some sort of repetition". Similarities can be manipulated to function in ways that exact repetitions do - often with more pleasing results.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Would some music sound as though by a female composer?

I don't believe so, Bbm - I can't even imagine how anyone could suggest a list of specifically "female" characteristics.

(As Richard says about the Ligeti.)

[The_Student]

Not necessarily - "structure" is a verb as well as a noun; it is something that is done (by the composer and by the active, attentive listener), rather than a template to be "filled in". A "constantly built" (your word) sequence of "barely resolved anticipations" is a "structure". (Whether this is what the composer intended - and again, I cannot comment in detail as I don't know the work - is another matter: if this is how you are perceiving it, this is how you are structuring it.)


How are what connected? (Or, if you prefer, they are connected in you - in your perception of the Music you are hearing.)


Good point - but if one section of "barely resolved anticipation" is succeeded by another and then another (as you suggest by your "constantly built"), then there is "some sort of repetition". Similarities can be manipulated to function in ways that exact repetitions do - often with more pleasing results.

By connected I refer to the opinion that anticipation is a subjective phenomena dependant on previous experience in music (so different for (possibly) for everyone) and structure being a system that is the music- or a 'thing' that the music is bound to. So we have music theory going against human psychology- how are they connected?

Second point- I agree but what if it impossible for the listener to create these connections? As in one surprise after another. What if there is pure spontaneous activity after the other?

[The_Student]

Surely it's clear that some music (& some literature, some visual art, some etc. etc.) is quite audibly "gendered" and some isn't? Since Musica ricercata has been mentioned, would anyone know whether it was written by a man or a woman if they hadn't been informed? You would know, on the other hand, with some background in 20th century music, that it was written by someone with a close knowledge of Bartók's Mikrokosmos.

This will sound corny, but I was introduced to Ligeti through eyes wide shut (I realise this makes me sound even more of a pseud(?) as mentioned earlier but I was immediately under the impression it was written by a man. But, again looking at culture- the hierarchy of composers is still male- in 2013 it was said that female composers only made up 20% of published works- so one would assume it was a man