Music has no gender?

[Guest]

So, there is the much agreed with argument- Music has no gender.

I sit on the fence with this statement, purely because I do not know enough to argue for either side, but find it fascinating. But, I do understand that, from a traditional, classical background that statement is true-no matter what the gender-everyone has to abide to the same musical rules in composition.

but, what about New Music? we are now in a world of fusion arts, the classical with the [world music?], technology (spectralism?) in a world of free composition, timbre taking hierarchy over harmony and structure- is there now a window opening for gender to, actually impact music through the free exploration of emotion and intuition?

[ahinton]

So, there is the much agreed with argument- Music has no gender.

I sit on the fence with this statement, purely because I do not know enough to argue for either side, but find it fascinating. But, I do understand that, from a traditional, classical background that statement is true-no matter what the gender-everyone has to abide to the same musical rules in composition.

but, what about New Music? we are now in a world of fusion arts, the classical with the [world music?], technology (spectralism?) in a world of free composition, timbre taking hierarchy over harmony and structure- is there now a window opening for gender to, actually impact music through the free exploration of emotion and intuition?

Well, Anna Magdalena's alleged (by some!) to have composed some of Johann Sebstian's works (a claim that would seem to be about as valid as Margaret Thatcher's espousal of Trostskyism in her youth), yet the claimants had yet to identify differences of compositional approach on the gender basis. Elizabeth Maconchy used to say that she was a woman to he family and friends but a composer to her audiences (which might beg the question as to whether her family and friends ever listened to her music) and Thea Musgrave says that she's a woman and a composer but never both at the same time. That said, if one listens to their best works or those of, say, Lili Boulanger or Grażyna Bacewicz or Sally Beamish (who by coincidence happens to have bought into the Anna Magdalena Bach thing to some extent) without knowing in advance that they're by women, there's no way of telling the gender of the composer from the music.

I don't really understand what you mean by your last bit; could you please explain?

[Pabmusic]

A problem with the question is that it assumes there is a dichotomy: male or female. Which ignores the fact that gender is not a dichotomy, but is more like a sliding scale. (Yes, and I realise that most people possess only XX or XY chromosomes.)

[The_Student]

[QUOTE=ahinton;574477]Well, Anna Magdalena's alleged (by some!) to have composed some of Johann Sebstian's works (a claim that would seem to be about as valid as Margaret Thatcher's espousal of Trostskyism in her youth), yet the claimants had yet to identify differences of compositional approach on the gender basis. Elizabeth Maconchy used to say that she was a woman to he family and friends but a composer to her audiences (which might beg the question as to whether her family and friends ever listened to her music) and Thea Musgrave says that she's a woman and a composer but never both at the same time. That said, if one listens to their best works or those of, say, Lili Boulanger or Grażyna Bacewicz or Sally Beamish (who by coincidence happens to have bought into the Anna Magdalena Bach thing to some extent) without knowing in advance that they're by women, there's no way of telling the gender of the composer from the music.

I agree, gender is a rather open field. But, it could be suggested that there are certain traits that belong to either male or female gender. So if one, very bluntly assumed there were differences, could this show in music? as was previously said, in history women composers often wrote/published under false names etc, but this was because of social norms of the historical context, not gender. And listening to the music, it would be next to impossible to suggest the gender of the composer.

I did consider the old "maternal instinct" but this was also argued that, it is not nature that suggests this idea of instinct, but nurture (female/male roles within a family)

What I am interested in, is the music composed today. The male/ female role has shifted due to equality and diversity (very broadly speaking). There is less differentiation in what the role now is. So, do men feel less masculine/ do women feel less feminine? is it possible to attempt to realise ones gender through composition? Say, the choice of instrumentation-there are instruments obviously associated to have sexual connotations, such as the flute or cello. the use of technology, the amount of certain effects such as reverb used? exploring timbre, the harmonic series in such a way that expresses a certain character associated with male/female traits?

[Stanfordian]

This thread would be a contender for 'Pseuds Corner' in 'Private Eye'.

[ahinton]

This thread would be a contender for 'Pseuds Corner' in 'Private Eye'.

And who might you assume the pseuds concerned to be?

[The_Student]

This thread would be a contender for 'Pseuds Corner' in 'Private Eye'.

Could you explain this statement? You appear to have an opinion on the matter, I would be interested in hearing this

[Quarky]

So, there is the much agreed with argument- Music has no gender.

I sit on the fence with this statement, purely because I do not know enough to argue for either side, but find it fascinating. But, I do understand that, from a traditional, classical background that statement is true-no matter what the gender-everyone has to abide to the same musical rules in composition.

but, what about New Music? we are now in a world of fusion arts, the classical with the [world music?], technology (spectralism?) in a world of free composition, timbre taking hierarchy over harmony and structure- is there now a window opening for gender to, actually impact music through the free exploration of emotion and intuition?

You could well be right. In classical music, as well as serialism, one has to abide by the rules, which are apparently abstract. But who made the rules? Men of course, and there is no disputing that Classical music, in particular composition, is and was heavily male - dominated. Wagner, Brahms, Schoenberg - the compositions often have a male character - intellectualism based upon an extremely thorough knowledge ofthe rules.

But with New Music, the pallette is wide open, anything goes. Apparently abstract, but I am finding that female composers such as Sally Beamish, Thea Musgrave, Judith Weir have very appealing compositions based upon their inner feelings and their viewson what music is about. Male composers in contrast (present company excepted) may go over the top, with much stridency, frenzy, and loud noises.

That is an off the cuff view at any rate.

Anyhow, three cheers for St. Cecilia!

[ahinton]

You could well be right. In classical music, as well as serialism, one has to abide by the rules, which are apparently abstract. But who made the rules? Men of course, and there is no disputing that Classical music, in particular composition, is and was heavily male - dominated. Wagner, Brahms, Schoenberg - the compositions often have a male character - intellectualism based upon an extremely thorough knowledge ofthe rules.

In what sense and by what means do these composers' works possess a "male" character? And, since we're talking 19th/20th century here, what of the music of Maria Szymanowska, Louise Farrenc, Fanny Mendelssohn, Clara Schumann, Lili Boulanger, Ethel Smyth &c.? Can you really say that their music is "female" in character and, if so, on what specific grounds might you do so?

I am finding that female composers such as Sally Beamish, Thea Musgrave, Judith Weir have very appealing compositions based upon their inner feelings and their viewson what music is about. Male composers in contrast (present company excepted) may go over the top, with much stridency, frenzy, and loud noises.

That is an off the cuff view at any rate.

'Fraid your cuff's frayed, then! Are you seriously suggesting that the music of Beamish, Musgrave and Weir is somehow "based on their inner feelings and the views on what music is about" only because they're all women and, by implication, that it wouldn't be so if there were not? As to your second sentence in that paragraph, such a description might as easily fit Galina Ustvolskaya!

Anyhow, three cheers for St. Cecilia!

I'll certainly second that!

[pastoralguy]

I remember being mildly surprised recently that, upon watching the credits of a movie I had enjoyed, that the incidental music was written by...a woman! Mind you, I was listening with no preconceptions since my primary motivation was the film itself.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Gender role perceptions - rather than "gender" itself - cause the problems. If we are disposed to think of "aggression, stridency, intellectualism, frenzy, loudness" as "masculine" (as opposed to "human") and "emotion, Inner feeling" as "feminine", then we impose those characteristics upon the Music that we listen to - and end up decis=ding that Jurg Frey, Salvatore Sciarrino, Jakob Ulmann are women, and Ustvolskaya, Lutyens, Neuwirth are blokes.

People respond to the way the social environment expects them to behave - either by trying to fit in (if they approve of/desire what those expectations require of them) or by reacting against those expectations (if they disapprove/are repulsed by them). In other words - "gender" has no gender; just agendas.

[Pulcinella]

Isn't music feminine?
Die Musik, la musique, la musica, la música, to give just German, French, Italian, and Spanish.

[ahinton]

Gender role perceptions - rather than "gender" itself - cause the problems. If we are disposed to think of "aggression, stridency, intellectualism, frenzy, loudness" as "masculine" (as opposed to "human") and "emotion, Inner feeling" as "feminine", then we impose those characteristics upon the Music that we listen to - and end up decis=ding that Jurg Frey, Salvatore Sciarrino, Jakob Ulmann are women, and Ustvolskaya, Lutyens, Neuwirth are blokes.

People respond to the way the social environment expects them to behave - either by trying to fit in (if they approve of/desire what those expectations require of them) or by reacting against those expectations (if they disapprove/are repulsed by them). In other words - "gender" has no gender; just agendas.

Correct in all particulars!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

everyone has to abide to the same musical rules in composition.

... a world of free composition, timbre taking hierarchy over harmony and structure- is there now a window opening for gender to, actually impact music through the free exploration of emotion and intuition?

And "rules" and "freedom", like "masculine" and "feminine", is another pair of false oppositions that creates problems when we try to regard the Arts through such distorting lenses. It seems as if some people think that "rules" were created by some anonymous authority and then imposed upon hapless composers against their will, only for the Great Composers to come along and break them (thus showing that they are Great Composers)! There are no Rules: there have only ever been algorithms ("recipes", if you prefer - as in Schoenberg's "Method of composing with Twelve Notes Related Only to Each Other", which is so carelessly reduced - even on Radio Three; even by lecturers at UK Universities - to "The Twelve-Note System"). If you wish your Music to sound like this, you have to follow these procedures - if you want it to sound differently, you have to follow other procedures. These are no more (and/or no less) "Rules" than telling a painter that to get a particular shade of orange s/he has to use this particular blend of red, yellow, plus whatever other shades of blue/black. Beethoven/Wagner/Debussy/Stravinsky didn't "break all the rules" (as I heard a R3 announcer declare the other day) - they created their own, new/adapted rules from which they were able to control the presentation/communication of the sounds to the performers and listeners. It is no different today - if you want the Music to sound this way, you have to follow these procedures and conventions and avoid those; if you want it to sound this other way, then these other procedures/conventions and not those. These are no more/no less "Rules" than following a recipe in order to make a favourite dish taste the same way each time. If you want your Music to sound different, you have to create new "rules" - Art/communication doesn't work without such "rules"; it doesn't communicate if it's just a sequence of events that merely "break" existing rules/conventions and give nothing new.

And "free" is another abused word - apart from research suggesting that "free-will" is a mythic conception that we've created to make ourselves feel less afraid, everything has a moral, intellectual, emotional, "spiritual" "Cost". The greater the choices available to us, the more we become responsible for the choices we make - and, perhaps, the more we have to discard.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Isn't music feminine?
Die Musik, la musique, la musica, la música, to give just German, French, Italian, and Spanish.

- only at the weekends.