Cage: "Indeterminacy"; H&N, Sat, 25/6/16, 10:00pm

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

After a trio of rather tepid editions of Hear & Now, the programme turns to more substantial fare with a recording made at the rather wonderful Cafe Oto in London of a realization of Cage's talk/recital Indeterminacy, performed by Musicians Steve Beresford and Tania Chen with Cage's verbal texts delivered by Stewart Lee.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07h15d9

Lee himself described his involvement in the piece when he was first involved nearly four years ago:

http://thequietus.com/articles/09907-stewart-lee-john-cage-indeterminacy

[Bryn]

... http://thequietus.com/articles/09907...-indeterminacy

Oops! David Tudor "improvised". Oh no he didn't. He played Cage's Solo for Piano (the piano part of Concert for Piano and Orchestra) and extract from a tape of Fontana Mix.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oops! David Tudor "improvised". Oh no he didn't. He played Cage's Solo for Piano (the piano part of Concert for Piano and Orchestra) and extract from a tape of Fontana Mix.

- I wondered about the frequent use of this term in both articles, given (IIRC) Cage's dislike of the term.

[Quarky]

After a trio of rather tepid editions of Hear & Now, the programme turns to more substantial fare with a recording made at the rather wonderful Cafe Oto in London of a realization of Cage's talk/recital Indeterminacy, performed by Musicians Steve Beresford and Tania Chen with Cage's verbal texts delivered by Stewart Lee.

......mmmmmm - mainly of historical interest? Musical content was I felt rather simplistic, at least in this broadcast version.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

......mmmmmm - mainly of historical interest? Musical content was I felt rather simplistic, at least in this broadcast version.

Not one of Cage's best Musical pieces, I agree, Oddy - I wondered if better extracts from his output could have been chosen - but my attention was held throughout, and I enjoyed it very much. A bit more than "mainly historical" - I started thinking how I'd do it if I were ever involved in such a project - and a damn sight more inspiring than anything since the Moondog/Babbitt programme.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

- I wondered if better extracts from his output could have been chosen -

It even crossed my uncharitable mind to wonder if those chosen could have been "better" performed - the preceding talk led me to expect a greater prominence from the Musicians than just the often "background" noises to Stewart Lee's rather splendid presentation of the word texts. But the three performers have worked on the piece for over four years now, so they've honed it to how they want it to come across. Maybe the BBC sound balance was weighted towards the spoken element too much?

Or maybe this is how it should be heard, and I just haven't "twigged" yet?!

[Bryn]

Not one of Cage's best Musical pieces, I agree, Oddy - I wondered if better extracts from his output could have been chosen - but my attention was held throughout, and I enjoyed it very much. A bit more than "mainly historical" - I started thinking how I'd do it if I were ever involved in such a project - and a damn sight more inspiring than anything since the Moondog/Babbitt programme.

I knew the lecture via its inclusion in Silence (2nd paperback edition of 1967) long before I ever heard the LPs of Cage and Tudor. I think Stewart Lee made a fine fist of the 45 stories he read. I have admired Tania Chen's playing since first hearing her play in duets with John Tilbury way back in the mists of time. I'm a bit miffed though that having been one of many who fell off the Cafe OTO mailing list (despite being a paid up digital member) I was not aware of the concert in time to attend.

[Bryn]

It even crossed my uncharitable mind to wonder if those chosen could have been "better" performed - the preceding talk led me to expect a greater prominence from the Musicians than just the often "background" noises to Stewart Lee's rather splendid presentation of the word texts. But the three performers have worked on the piece for over four years now, so they've honed it to how they want it to come across. Maybe the BBC sound balance was weighted towards the spoken element too much?

Or maybe this is how it should be heard, and I just haven't "twigged" yet?!

Cage first performed the lecture in Brussels in 1958 (at that time it consisted of just 30 stories) without musical accompaniment. Only later, in Italy, did he perform the lecture along with David Tudor playing extract from Concert for Piano and Orchestra.

I must email Tania to check whether, where and when they will be performing it again.

[Richard Barrett]

I grew up with the Cage/Tudor recording. I think I learned a lot from it about balance and form. I haven't yet listened in to the H&N broadcast but I've seen a video of Lee, Beresford and Chen performing it. Does anyone happen to know what the two instrumentalists are playing? They looked as if they were improvising freely, which would seem a bit unCagean. If that matters. Also, while I'm a strong admirer of Stewart Lee, I'm not sure having him read the texts was such a great idea.

[Bryn]

I grew up with the Cage/Tudor recording. I think I learned a lot from it about balance and form. I haven't yet listened in to the H&N broadcast but I've seen a video of Lee, Beresford and Chen performing it. Does anyone happen to know what the two instrumentalists are playing? They looked as if they were improvising freely, which would seem a bit unCagean. If that matters. Also, while I'm a strong admirer of Stewart Lee, I'm not sure having him read the texts was such a great idea.

Stewart Lee has made a point of not listening to the Cage and Tudor recording. He plans to do so only when he stops performing it himself. I salute him for that.

[Richard Barrett]

Stewart Lee has made a point of not listening to the Cage and Tudor recording. He plans to do so only when he stops performing it himself. I salute him for that.

Quite right too. But do you know what Steve & Tania are playing?

[Bryn]

Quite right too. But do you know what Steve & Tania are playing?

Not sure. I was not listening that intently to Robert Worby's introduction and interviews with them. I will have another listen to check if it was mentioned.

[Bryn]

O.k., I have now listened to the relevant section of the interview. Tania and Steve improvise, but Tania describes is as a constrained improvisation. Her description reminded me of what Eddie Prevost wrote about AMM's playing of Treatise '84 in the booklet notes for the Combine+Laminates+Treatise '84 CD, which I feel sure you have, even if you can't immediately recall what Eddie wrote. The liner notes use to be available online, but it looks like they have been taken down,

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

O.k., I have now listened to the relevant section of the interview. Tania and Steve improvise, but Tania describes is as a constrained improvisation.

Yes, the relevant pre-performance conversation lasts about 12 minutes and starts at 57mins into the programme - Ms Chen's description is around the 1hr point.

I was interested to hear Stewart Lee's comments about being concerned about how the number of performances they have performed since 2010 might have had a negative impact on the indetermined aspect of the work; that he was becoming concerned that there was a danger that he was becoming familiar with "what was coming next". I wonder if this was also having an effect on the performance we heard broadcast - that the edges had been smoothed off? That a recording from, say, three years ago might have been more involving for the listener? (The altered performing set-up, too, exacerbating this - rather than the narrator and Musician(s) being unable to hear each other as in the Cage/Tudor performances, here they have been in the same room for all their performances) Or perhaps it's just simply a case that if Cage's own works had been used as source material for the two Musicians, rather than their own "sort-of/not quite" improvisations?

Because it is what the duo did that gave me least interest - Stewart Lee was not only a fine deliverer of the texts (chosen by the duo partly because he "doesn't sound like John Cage"), he also had the most interesting and insightful things to say about the piece in the pre-performance talk.

[Quarky]

......mmmmmm - mainly of historical interest? Musical content was I felt rather simplistic, at least in this broadcast version.

Multiple apologies - I was listening to the wrong Cage composition!