Wot? No comments on Boulez?

[ahinton]

It certainly seems to be quite difficult to keep the comments to Boulez.

Guilty as implicitly charged, m'lud, having omitted to resist the temptation to respond to fhg's reference to changing the clocks (especially, perhaps, since Le temps l'horloge is by Dutilleux)...

I was talking to someone the other evening who said one of the most interesting things about this performance of Pli selon pli was how different it was from the recorded performances made by Boulez himself (three as far as I know, each a bit slower and more luxuriant than the last), especially in those moments where the score allows the conductor some latitude to "play" the ensemble like a single large instrument. Presumably these moments can be understood as a kind of "self-portrait" of Boulez's own personality and preferences as a conductor, so that other interpreters then have the choice of either playing the part of Boulez (in the theatrical sense) or "being him/herself".

That's an interesting thought which had never occurred to me. Pli selon pli is undoubtedly on of those works that yields up new things (well, things that might previously have escaped the listener's notice because of having his/her attention drawn to other aspects of the work) with each listening; to anyone who complains of alleged clinicality in Boulez (and some still do) I have one stock answer - go listen to his vocal music...

[Serial_Apologist]

It certainly seems to be quite difficult to keep the comments to Boulez.

I was talking to someone the other evening who said one of the most interesting things about this performance of Pli selon pli was how different it was from the recorded performances made by Boulez himself (three as far as I know, each a bit slower and more luxuriant than the last), especially in those moments where the score allows the conductor some latitude to "play" the ensemble like a single large instrument. Presumably these moments can be understood as a kind of "self-portrait" of Boulez's own personality and preferences as a conductor, so that other interpreters then have the choice of either playing the part of Boulez (in the theatrical sense) or "being him/herself".

This is one of Boulez's later differences with Stockhausen, who derided "interpretations" of his own works, saying: listen to my recordings.

[ahinton]

This is one of Boulez's later differences with Stockhausen, who derided "interpretations" of his own works, saying: listen to my recordings.

Quite - almost as though implying that no one could perform them other than he...

[Richard Barrett]

Stockhausen, who derided "interpretations" of his own works, saying: listen to my recordings.

I'm not sure about that... after all, plenty of his works admit of far more performative latitude than any of Boulez's, which are relatively tentative in that regard, and his precisely-notated music is intended, like Boulez's, to be played with the maximum precision, although even then he sanctioned various quite different approaches to his Klavierstücke. When and in what context did this derision take place?

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm not sure about that... after all, plenty of his works admit of far more performative latitude than any of Boulez's, which are relatively tentative in that regard, and his precisely-notated music is intended, like Boulez's, to be played with the maximum precision, although even then he sanctioned various quite different approaches to his Klavierstücke. When and in what context did this derision take place?

I'll try & get back to you tomorrow: I have KS on tape somewhere, giving a lecture in which he is really scornful: what do you think I did all those recordings for, sort of thing.

[Richard Barrett]

I'll try & get back to you tomorrow: I have KS on tape somewhere, giving a lecture in which he is really scornful: what do you think I did all those recordings for, sort of thing.

That I can believe. I remember his notes for the recordings of early ensemble pieces played by the London Sinfonietta in 1973 saying that these recordings are to be considered as "completions of the scores".

My point though was that the way in which the conductor can shape the music in Pli selon pli presents quite a limited range of options compared to something like Stockhausen's Mixtur, let alone his music of the later 1960s. Boulez's view of interpretation remains essentially a traditional one, even in Pli selon pli which always sounds more or less the same in the sort of way that a 19th century piece will always sound more or less the same, whereas at this time Stockhausen had begun to search for more radically new ways of looking at the performer's role in realising a composition, at least until the 1970s when he made an abrupt turn back towards precisely-written scores.

[MrGongGong]

That I can believe. I remember his notes for the recordings of early ensemble pieces played by the London Sinfonietta in 1973 saying that these recordings are to be considered as "completions of the scores".

My point though was that the way in which the conductor can shape the music in Pli selon pli presents quite a limited range of options compared to something like Stockhausen's Mixtur, let alone his music of the later 1960s. Boulez's view of interpretation remains essentially a traditional one, even in Pli selon pli which always sounds more or less the same in the sort of way that a 19th century piece will always sound more or less the same, whereas at this time Stockhausen had begun to search for more radically new ways of looking at the performer's role in realising a composition, at least until the 1970s when he made an abrupt turn back towards precisely-written scores.

Interesting stuff Richard.
Wasn't there (and i'm half remembering something?) a falling out with Globokar over some of the ownership of the composition (similar to that between La Monte Young and Tony Conrad)?

[Richard Barrett]

falling out with Globokar

There was indeed. When the recordings of Aus den sieben Tagen were made, Globokar insisted that he and the other participants should be listed as co-composers of the music, and when Stockhausen said no Globokar refused to have his name on the recordings at all, so the LPs bear the credit "a trombonist (who wishes to remain anonymous)". They seem to have made it up by the time the CD reissues came out though.

[Barbirollians]

Thought his recording of Das Lied von der Erde played on Radio 3 on Friday was pretty disappointing much the least moving Abschied I think I have ever heard .

Shame as I thought his recording of Mahler with Gerhaher and Kozena was excellent .

His own compositions leave me cold .

[Richard Barrett]

much the least moving Abschied I think I have ever heard

It is certainly extremely understated compared with many other recorded performances, but personally I've never heard a performance of this piece which isn't intensely moving whatever interpretational decisions are taken. I suppose of Boulez's own music leaves one cold it's not very likely that his interpretations of other music are going to make one much warmer though, since of course his musical personality is inevitably present in both, in different ways. Boulez as a Mahler conductor is one of the few things that give rise to domestic disagreements around here. For me he certainly emphasises certain aspects - eg. intricacy of orchestration, clarity of structure - at the expense of others - eg. flexibility of tempo and dynamics - in a similar sort of way to Boulez's own music. But which view of Mahler isn't a partial view in some way? Everyone who's sufficiently engaged by his music has their "own" Mahler; and, for those of us who aren't conductors, nobody else's performance is ever going to coincide with it in every respect. On the other hand, something we can hope for is that "someone else's" Mahler embodies ideas and insights one hasn't had and/or couldn't have oneself, and for me Boulez's interpretations (and, for what it's worth, his compositions) certainly do that.

[Quarky]

Did anyone hear the Boulez programme on R3 last night?

Or on Saturday night, 26 March, Hear and Now, and TTN, Jonathan Swain?

[french frank]

Please note - this is a resuscitated thread and various things have changed since it was started!