Harrison Birtwistle 80

[ahinton]

You got that right at least.

No doubt readers with whom I'm personally acquainted will have heard this story before: some years ago I was on the phone to my mother, who asked me whether I'd heard of someone called Harrison Birtwistle. Yes of course, I said, why do you ask. She told me she'd been watching Last Night of the Proms on the TV when his piece Panic was played. I asked her what she thought of it, to which the answer was "well, it was quite bad, but not as bad as what you do."

!!! Have you recounted that tale to HB himself?...

[Richard Barrett]

- mothers, eh?

And something my late father said a few months before he left us was "when you hear your music being performed do you actually like it?" (as if that was a frankly implausible concept)

On the other hand I really didn't see what all the fuss was about with Panic - it struck me as rather well-behaved and underwhelming in comparison with The Mask of Orpheus or Punch and Judy or even Antiphonies, to name three of my favourites. I haven't heard much of his most recent work but my general rule of thumb is that his larger-scale pieces are often powerful and memorable while the smaller-scale ones are often the opposite (though The Axe Manual is another favourite of mine).

[Sydney Grew]

. . . celebrating Harrison Birtwistle's 80th birthday . . .

But if the truth be told - which it must and will be in the end - it is not nearly as good as Mozart is it. And it is now a little late to go back to first principles.

[ahinton]

But if the truth be told - which it must and will be in the end - it is not nearly as good as Mozart is it. And it is now a little late to go back to first principles.

What isn't? Harrison Birtwistle's 80th birthday? Mozart didn't survive to celebrate his 80th birthday. I fail to perceive the connection or the relevance of your reference to Mozart here. Lastly, what are "first principles" and how do they apply here?

Clearly, your post raises far more questions than it answers, though whether any of them are either answerable or merit being answered is perhaps another matter...

[Richard Barrett]

it is not nearly as good as Mozart is it

Is your journey really necessary?

[Blotto]

But if the truth be told - which it must and will be in the end - it is not nearly as good as Mozart is it.

It doesn't seem to be, no. But then, whilst enjoyment of Mozart isn't universal, would there be too many people who'd suggest many composers' works are as good? Beethoven seems like the summit of music to me but there's much great music written after and it seems unlikely that great music isn't written in our day even if few of us are able to see this.

If you acknowledge that you aren't comparing like for like, can you identify someone whose music Birtwistle's is as good as, Sydney? Walton? Honegger? Maxwell Davies? John Field?

I heard his violin concerto at the Proms a few years ago with some pleasure but not when I've listened again and nothing else has ever touched me at all. Heard Gawain and Yan Tan Tethera at the Barbican this spring. YTT left me cold and Gawain was positively tiring. All those monosyllabic sung notes and a ponderous libretto. It was an hilariously 'unfortunate' semi-staging (though well-sung by Leigh Melrose and characterfully-acted by John Tomlinson) but the lumpen monotony of the music it was that failed. I suspect he won't be played any more often than Tippett after he dies. I wonder if Maxwell Davies will be played at all?

What must it be like to be a composer? For the most part, your music isn't especially enjoyed when you're alive and almost altogether forgotten by audiences soon after your death. I wonder what contribution does all the mediocre music make to life?

[jayne lee wilson]

Time-frame on "durability" & value of recent & contemporary music just a touch shallow here, Blott? Tippett left us, what, 16 years ago...? I can recall at least one BBCSO cycle of the symphonies since, Proms performances too (Brabbins in No.2), but - what about recordings? As long as I'm able to listen I know I'll be pulling Tippett, Max or Harry B off the shelf... so even if there's no money or creative will to perform them (which I seriously doubt) the music will burn brightly in the ears, hearts and minds of living individuals, anyone who seeks to experience today's world afresh through new creation...

Not to mention the history of performance (and awareness, and understanding) of JS Bach, Mozart, Bruckner, Mahler...

[MrGongGong]

It doesn't seem to be, no. But then, whilst enjoyment of Mozart isn't universal, would there be too many people who'd suggest many composers' works are as good?

What on earth do you (or Sid) mean by "good" anyway ?
"Good" for what ?
The Chemical Brothers are "good" for dancing to
Feldman's music is "good" for freezing time

Music has many functions
the problem with apples is that they don't taste cheesy enough

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

the problem with apples is that they don't taste cheesy enough

[ahinton]

The Chemical Brothers are "good" for dancing to

If dance you must and if you lkike that sort of thing for that purpose...

Feldman's music is "good" for freezing time

I'd rather stick it in the freezer ("time", I mean - not Feldman's music!)

Music has many functions

Indeed it does.

the problem with apples is that they don't taste cheesy enough

Sure - but one can go to certain remarks made not far from here to find as much cheesiness as one could want.

None of the above undermines, or is meant to undermine, your point, by the way (in case you'd not already realised that!)...

[ahinton]

Time-frame on "durability" & value of recent & contemporary music just a touch shallow here, Blott? Tippett left us, what, 16 years ago...? I can recall at least one BBCSO cycle of the symphonies since, Proms performances too (Brabbins in No.2), but - what about recordings? As long as I'm able to listen I know I'll be pulling Tippett, Max or Harry B off the shelf... so even if there's no money or creative will to perform them (which I seriously doubt) the music will burn brightly in the ears, hearts and minds of living individuals, anyone who seeks to experience today's world afresh through new creation...

Not to mention the history of performance (and awareness, and understanding) of JS Bach, Mozart, Bruckner, Mahler...

Ah - more welcome Wilsonic wisdom, for which many thanks!

OK, we know that Tippett's work seemed to fall into quite a slough in the aftermath of his death - so did that of Joseph Marx - but the suggestion that composers are destined to get largely forgotten about as an inevitable consequence of their deaths hardly embarces universal truth, does it? Were Shostakovich or Britten sidelined from the mid-70s onwards because they'd departed this life? (or does premature death come with some kind of get out of jail card?)...

[Roehre]

Time-frame on "durability" & value of recent & contemporary music just a touch shallow here, Blott? Tippett left us, what, 16 years ago...? I can recall at least one BBCSO cycle of the symphonies since, Proms performances too (Brabbins in No.2), but - what about recordings? As long as I'm able to listen I know I'll be pulling Tippett, Max or Harry B off the shelf... so even if there's no money or creative will to perform them (which I seriously doubt) the music will burn brightly in the ears, hearts and minds of living individuals, anyone who seeks to experience today's world afresh through new creation...

Not to mention the history of performance (and awareness, and understanding) of JS Bach, Mozart, Bruckner, Mahler...

[Serial_Apologist]

Time-frame on "durability" & value of recent & contemporary music just a touch shallow here, Blott? Tippett left us, what, 16 years ago...? I can recall at least one BBCSO cycle of the symphonies since, Proms performances too (Brabbins in No.2), but - what about recordings? As long as I'm able to listen I know I'll be pulling Tippett, Max or Harry B off the shelf... so even if there's no money or creative will to perform them (which I seriously doubt) the music will burn brightly in the ears, hearts and minds of living individuals, anyone who seeks to experience today's world afresh through new creation...

Not to mention the history of performance (and awareness, and understanding) of JS Bach, Mozart, Bruckner, Mahler...

Thanks jayne - a great message to hold proudly aloft amid these gloomy reactionary times.

[Blotto]

What on earth do you (or Sid) mean by "good" anyway ?
"Good" for what ?
The Chemical Brothers are "good" for dancing to
Feldman's music is "good" for freezing time

Music has many functions
the problem with apples is that they don't taste cheesy enough

I've thought about this a little and I think I'd mean not as absorbing in rhythm, as amusing in melody or as moving in harmony. Overall, it serves no clear purpose to me. I can catch a few moments of interest but I can't appreciate Birtwistle's "endless exposition" (if that's what I'm hearing) even whilst, through abstract drawing, at least, I'm sympathetic to the idea. What surprises me in his singing are its consistent monosyllabics and how impotent it is. What surprises me is how little identifiable syncopation I'm able to catch even though I understand that he's a great rhythmatist.

Since I find it difficult to accept that I might be inadequate to the music's purpose, I would agree with the suggestion that the music is probably not as good as Mozart because it does not speaking with any meaning to me. It may as well be prattle or chatter or jabber.

[MrGongGong]

I've thought about this a little and I think I'd mean not as absorbing in rhythm, amusing in melody or moving in harmony. It serves no clear purpose to me.

Wot Ives said

"Clear purpose"

I really don't understand what you mean at all by this ?