The wrong note school is back at last!

[Sydney Grew]

. . . if you're going to be experimental . . .

Out of interest, what makes certain sorts of modern compositions "experimental" and other sorts of modern compositions not?

[ahinton]

Out of interest, what makes certain sorts of modern compositions "experimental" and other sorts of modern compositions not?

Richqrd Barrett wrote
"if you're going to be experimental with the tuning"
Why does this need any elaborative explanation?

[MrGongGong]

Out of interest, what makes certain sorts of modern compositions "experimental" and other sorts of modern compositions not?

The word "experimental" can be a bit over/mis-used IMV
In some ways ALL music is an "experiment"

I would maybe make the distinction between music where the performance is an experiment and music where the experiments happen before (as in Mahler and Stockhausen)

[Pabmusic]

...I would maybe make the distinction between music where the performance is an experiment and music where the experiments happen before (as in Mahler and Stockhausen)

Very neat

[ahinton]

The word "experimental" can be a bit over/mis-used IMV
In some ways ALL music is an "experiment"

I would maybe make the distinction between music where the performance is an experiment and music where the experiments happen before (as in Mahler and Stockhausen)

Neatly put(!), but SG's question seemed to arise as a consequence of what Richard Barrett had written, which was specifically about experiments with tuning and seemed to me to be self-explanatory.

[MrGongGong]

Neatly put(!), but SG's question seemed to arise as a consequence of what Richard Barrett had written, which was specifically about experiments with tuning and seemed to me to be self-explanatory.

Like the OAE then ? (a fine ensemble IMV )

[ahinton]

Like the OAE then ? (a fine ensemble IMV )

I rather think that composers/improvisers experimenting with tuning was more what RB had in mind...(!)...

[MrGongGong]

I rather think that composers/improvisers experimenting with tuning was more what RB had in mind...(!)...

I know

Unintentional microtonality has long been a feature of my own work

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I know

Unintentional microtonality has long been a feature of my own work

And of my oboe playing.

[Quarky]

Out of interest, what makes certain sorts of modern compositions "experimental" and other sorts of modern compositions not?

A good question. Obviously this work is not an experiment in the scientific sense. But reference to the dictionary gives:

1.(of a new invention or product) based on untested ideas or techniques and not yet established or finalized.

2.(of art or an artistic technique) involving a radically new and innovative style.

So it appears to be a word which has been hijacked by the artistic community (John Cage?) to mean something slightly different. Can't help feeling that the word was originally used in an apologetic sense.

[Bryn]

A good question. Obviously this work is not an experiment in the scientific sense. But reference to the dictionary gives:

1.(of a new invention or product) based on untested ideas or techniques and not yet established or finalized.

2.(of art or an artistic technique) involving a radically new and innovative style.

So it appears to be a word which has been hijacked by the artistic community (John Cage?) to mean something slightly different. Can't help feeling that the word was originally used in an apologetic sense.

A whole book could be written on the subject. Oh, hang on, Michael Nyman already did that, back and in the early '70s. Very well done it is, too.

[Richard Barrett]

Sydney Grew's question is in any case based on a misreading of my post - I did not refer to the composition as experimental but to the composer's approach ("if you're going to be experimental").

[ahinton]

A whole book could be written on the subject. Oh, hang on, Michael Nyman already did that, back and in the early '70s. Very well done it is, too.

Yes - one of his best works, I think...

[Sydney Grew]

. . . if you're going to be experimental with the tuning why be so conventional with everything else? why not go the extra distance like Harry Partch and build instruments which are conceived from the start in terms of the system you're using...

It is the distinction between a painting by Francis Bacon and a canvas by some tedious abstractionist is it not? The technique and the effect produced are quite different in the two cases. The effect of Mr. Nuorvala's thing would be utterly altered had he "gone the extra distance." I think the effect produced by the piece as it stands is precisely the effect he intended it to produce.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes - one of his best works, I think...

I don't possess that book and am trying to recall Nyman's definition of the difference between avant-garde and experimental music. If I remember correctly the latter had to do with music whose outcome is only decided in performance, not by working at a score until perfected in accordance with a composer's assumed intentions. But, a composer's intentions may be to be non-intentional regarding outcomes, or be intentional that his performers, possibly not including himself, are non-intentional. But in that case either s/he, or they, would have to be intentional about being non-intentional.

The only conclusion I can reach is that to be experimental one is expected to be non-intentional at the moment one originally intended to be.