Thomas Trotter at Manchester Cathedral - broadcast 26th September 2017 at 7.30 p.m.

[Bryn]

I went through a brief phase of seeking out discs of Mahler and Bruckner organ transcriptions before realising they were of novelty value only and rarely listened to more than once.

The only such I have is Rogg's of Bruckner 8. Once was quite enough. I do though have the Stevenson/ White piano transcription of the Cooke et al performing version of the sketches for Mahler's 10th. That has had a few spins.

[Alison]

Brief visit to YouTube to sample DB Daphnis and Chloe. All pretty clever but four minutes was enough.

[Alison]

The only such I have is Rogg's of Bruckner 8. Once was quite enough. I do though have the Stevenson/ White piano transcription of the Cooke et al performing version of the sketches for Mahler's 10th. That has had a few spins.

Agreed, Nethersage

[Braunschlag]

Perhaps we might all be discussing the wrong thing.
These transcriptions are, strictly speaking, arrangements.
The art of true transcription (notating something from,say a recording, e.g. the Duruflé transcriptions of Tournemire), is an entirely different skill and many interesting improvisations have been preserved and performed from these considerable feats of aural skill.
Ardcarp - agree entirely regarding the organists lot en France. It's similar in Germany with graded exams and pay grades, something that has never been the case in the UK, save for the enfeebled RSCM attempts (and almost no help to my knowledge from the RCO).
These arrangements may well be fun, tittilating and feats of dexterity but that all shrieks of 'encore' to me, hardly the more substantial and idiomatic fare one would normally expect.

[ardcarp]

It is probably unnecessary to add that Golden Favourites of Wedding Couples such as Mendelssohn's Bridal (Bridle?) March from MND, Wagner's Bridal Chorus from Lohengrin, gems from Handel's Water Music, Bach's Jesu Joy, etc, etc are all transcriptions which work extremely well on the organ. Popular they may be (or were, at least) but popular with good reason. I have to say though that in the days of my treading the [pedal] boards and demonstrating possible music to Happy Couples, Widor's Toccata was pretty much a winner every time....so maybe they had an ear for the 'real thing'?

[Braunschlag]

Ardcarp -
'The 20th century in France certainly saw no diminution of the organist's status. Although the choral tradition left much to be desired, most great ecclesiastical establishments had (and still have) their 'titulaire'. The bedrock was a school of composer-players...several blind and trained from childhood....for whom improvisation was an important element.'

Indeed, very true. Some truly ghastly choral singing in my experience but, thankfully, rescued by an organist who could hold the entire service together with liturgically and musically appropriate interludes, introits and 'extroits' . I do understand that the titulaire is not always particularly well paid but the kudos is the real draw, along with associated benefits (a conservatoire post, for instance). And, French organists rarely have to bother with the time-consuming duties of a choir.
A few, in my view, enlightened UK cathedrals have chosen to appoint a choral/vocal specialist who is not an organist at all. Freeing off the organist to hone and develop their own skills (Hereford, St Paul's and Liverpool come to mind here). I see that as a positive step forward which ensures excellence in both singing and playing.
There should certainly be more emphasis on improvisation, it can and should be taught more often.

[ardcarp]

A few, in my view, enlightened UK cathedrals have chosen to appoint a choral/vocal specialist who is not an organist at all.

Agree with you there. Some cathedral organists (no names!) have been truly awful choir-trainers. But some excel in both departments, and one shining example is the late John Scott who is very pertinent to this thread.

[DracoM]

And what can happen to a choir when such a special man as John Scott is no longer i/c is daily in evidence.

[Finzi4ever]

And what can happen to a choir when such a special man as John Scott is no longer i/c is daily in evidence.

To which side of 'The Pond' are you alluding?

[Finzi4ever]

We got some Bach!

I gather the whole concert was played on the mobile console from which the entire instrument can be played. Odd how fortunes are spent on mechanical action organs (e.g. in the Bridgewater Hall, Manchester) and yet they are used for concert purposes via a set of electric switches!

The organ was referred to throughout as The Stoller Organ, as if 'Stoller' weere the organ builder. In fact Stoller was the charitable trust which paid for it, so fair enough to give them a mention. But the organ was built by the firm of Tickell & Co whose founder Kenneth Tickell sadly died recently. I think the Tickell name should have been given the priority.

Couldn't agree more with you on both points!

[Finzi4ever]

Ardcarp -
A few, in my view, enlightened UK cathedrals have chosen to appoint a choral/vocal specialist who is not an organist at all. Freeing off the organist to hone and develop their own skills (Hereford, St Paul's and Liverpool come to mind here).

I have to pull you up here: it's not true of Hereford - Geraint Bowen is a very fine organist as well as superb choirmaster; he was Asst. there, then ran the show at St David's before returning as DoM to Hereford on the retirement of Roy Massey. Neither is it fair of Liverpool (Anglican, I assume you to mean).

[Braunschlag]

I have to pull you up here: it's not true of Hereford - Geraint Bowen is a very fine organist as well as superb choirmaster; he was Asst. there, then ran the show at St David's before returning as DoM to Hereford on the retirement of Roy Massey. Neither is it fair of Liverpool (Anglican, I assume you to mean).

Fair cop, I was getting nostalgic with Liverpoool in the Ronald Woan/Rawsthorne era and plain incompetent with Hereford. Apologies.
Correct on St Paul's though and I'd still maintain that organists don't automatically make good choir trainers, it would help if some of them had vocal training.

[Dafydd y G.W.]

it would help if some of them had vocal training.

It would help if non-organist choir trainers had vocal training: the problem is not confined to organists. I have sung for one noted choral conductor who clearly had not the slightest idea how the vocal apparatus works (mind you, that applies to some singing teachers too).

But just as important is an understanding of how humans beings work (whether from training or intuitively). An extraordinary percentage of choir directors display not the slightest awareness of this, treating their people as mere singing machines. To take a very simple example: time management. People cannot concentrate for more than half an hour, yet how many directors take a break after thirty minutes' continuous work? And after a hour the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in (even with a break halfway). How many choir trainers have discipline and organisational skill to confine a rehearsal to an hour?

Many choirs achieve the results they do despite as much as because of how they are trained.

[ardcarp]

To take a very simple example: time management.

Agreed up to a point, but I'd rather be singing for half an hour than listening to a conductor waffling on about stuff. My heart sinks when at the start of a rehearsal the person in charge says "Now we're going through the whole B minor Mas marking in the dynamics, the breathing, the pronunciation. Everyone got pencils?" My attention span is used up already.

The really good choir trainers don't talk that much. They just get their results (a) by short interjections and repeating short passages to get what they want, and (b) by body language. Same goes for orchestral conductors!

[Dafydd y G.W.]

Agreed up to a point, but I'd rather be singing for half an hour than listening to a conductor waffling on about stuff. My heart sinks when at the start of a rehearsal the person in charge says "Now we're going through the whole B minor Mas marking in the dynamics, the breathing, the pronunciation. Everyone got pencils?" My attention span is used up already.

The really good choir trainers don't talk that much. They just get their results (a) by short interjections and repeating short passages to get what they want, and (b) by body language. Same goes for orchestral conductors!

Agreed. What I said about concentration applies equally to singing and listening to "instruction". The thirty minutes starts ticking the moment things begin, whether the director fills that time with talk or singing. As you rightly observe, half an hour marking in dynamics takes as much (possibly more!) out of people as half an hour of singing. It is, moreover, a poor use of time, and can be avoided with a bit of imagination and forethought.

Sadly, thought is a rare commodity - in all areas of life, not just music. To quote one of A.E. Housman's typically mordant observations: "Three minutes' thought would suffice to find this out; but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time."