Oh dear Felix....

[ahinton]

This is true. I shall put it right immediately.

I doubt that you will be disappointed, especially in no. 6 whose clear relationship with Beethoven's Op. 95 in the same key falls apart because its finale remains replate with anger and pessimism whereas Beethoven's finally achieved a sunny radiance in F major.

[Richard Barrett]

How on earth can you describe his 3rd and 5th Symphonies or MND as bland

Structurally they're conventional and expressively they're pretty unadventurous too. In my opinion of course. I would say the same things about the op.80 quartet in fact, which I had a listen to earlier on. I find it only emotionally uninhibited relative to Mendelssohn's other output: in comparison with Beethoven (its obvious source) or with Mendelssohn's friend Berlioz I still find it a polite and decaffeinated version of Romanticism.

[ahinton]

Structurally they're conventional and expressively they're pretty unadventurous too. In my opinion of course. I would say the same things about the op.80 quartet in fact, which I had a listen to earlier on. I find it only emotionally uninhibited relative to Mendelssohn's other output: in comparison with Beethoven (its obvious source) or with Mendelssohn's friend Berlioz I still find it a polite and decaffeinated version of Romanticism.

OK, well that's at least honest, if nothing more - and your description of a certain branch of Romanticism as "polite and decaffeinated" is at least entertaining, if not especially enlightening. Whose performance of Op. 80 did you listen to, anyway?

[Bryn]

... Whose performance of Op. 80 did you listen to, anyway?

Odds on not the Eroica Quartet. That's the way to do it.

[ahinton]

Odds on not the Eroica Quartet. That's the way to do it.

I wouldn't hazard a guess. The first time that I heard it was in a performance by the then Mistry Quartet, which was pretty amazing.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'd try to persuade RB to listen to the Leipzigers in Op.80 on MDG Gold, fast and furious and audiophile-spacious....

Since we're talking chamber music, what about those so-often-overlooked Quintets Op.18 and Op 87? Some of his best music, the earlier one especially (which IIRC I discovered courtesy of a Hans Keller R3 talk...he had no doubts about its stature as "a masterpiece"...like Op. 12 and 13...)
Grateful to be reminded of them (as with Bacewicz Quartets the other day) given my current chamber-music obsession, (somewhat sideswiped by the Proms, as usual...) yet more on the listening shortlist pile...(Raphhaels or L'Archibudelli).

I'm not sure I'd see Mendelssohn as merely a Romantic though - as with Schumann I think there's a Classical - Romantic creative tension, a repel-and-attract magnetism giving the music its unique between-eras qualities, the passion bursting from the formal concision and stylistic levities. But it does help with, say, Mendelssohn's 1st or 5th Symphonies to hear someone really dive into their manic rhythmical energies, like JEG's LSO series, or Zehetmair with the (deep breath) Musikkollegium Winterthur.. ..(so obscure the spellchecker doesn't even try to have its wicked fun).
The finale of the C Minor 1st might surprise some listeners in its Schubertian major-minor mood-swings, never mind its pent up rhythmic tension-and-release. Allegro con fuoco, very, and composed at the age of 15....
Remarkably restless work - apart from the lovely slow movement & trio, its relentless rhythms scarcely stop for breath....

[Vox Humana]

I'm not sure I'd see Mendelssohn as merely a Romantic though - as with Schumann I think there's a Classical - Romantic creative tension

Yes. I have always thought of Mendelssohn as a Classical Romantic. So, too, was Brahms, whose musical language and forms were comparatively restrained compared with the Romanticism of the Wagner/Bruckner/Mahler branch.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes. I have always thought of Mendelssohn as a Classical Romantic. So, too, was Brahms, whose musical language and forms were comparatively restrained compared with the Romanticism of the Wagner/Bruckner/Mahler branch.

I would agree when it comes to Mahler; but compared with Wagner, and especially Bruckner, there is far more harmonic, contrapuntal and formal tension and subtlety concentrated per measure into a Brahms symphony or chamber work, as Schoenberg I think recognised in balking the divisions and controversies and going for both the Brahmsian and the Wagnerian expansions of the language of music in the late 19th century.

[cloughie]

I'd try to persuade RB to listen to the Leipzigers in Op.80 on MDG Gold, fast and furious and audiophile-spacious....

Since we're talking chamber music, what about those so-often-overlooked Quintets Op.18 and Op 87? Some of his best music, the earlier one especially (which IIRC I discovered courtesy of a Hans Keller R3 talk...he had no doubts about its stature as "a masterpiece"...like Op. 12 and 13...)
Grateful to be reminded of them (as with Bacewicz Quartets the other day) given my current chamber-music obsession, (somewhat sideswiped by the Proms, as usual...) yet more on the listening shortlist pile...(Raphhaels or L'Archibudelli).

I'm not sure I'd see Mendelssohn as merely a Romantic though - as with Schumann I think there's a Classical - Romantic creative tension, a repel-and-attract magnetism giving the music its unique between-eras qualities, the passion bursting from the formal concision and stylistic levities. But it does help with, say, Mendelssohn's 1st or 5th Symphonies to hear someone really dive into their manic rhythmical energies, like JEG's LSO series, or Zehetmair with the (deep breath) Musikkollegium Winterthur.. ..(so obscure the spellchecker doesn't even try to have its wicked fun).
The finale of the C Minor 1st might surprise some listeners in its Schubertian major-minor mood-swings, never mind its pent up rhythmic tension-and-release. Allegro con fuoco, very, and composed at the age of 15....
Remarkably restless work - apart from the lovely slow movement & trio, its relentless rhythms scarcely stop for breath....

I'm more than happy with Sawallisch's readings of these!

[Vox Humana]

I would agree when it comes to Mahler; but compared with Wagner, and especially Bruckner, there is far more harmonic, contrapuntal and formal tension and subtlety concentrated per measure into a Brahms symphony or chamber work, as Schoenberg I think recognised in balking the divisions and controversies and going for both the Brahmsian and the Wagnerian expansions of the language of music in the late 19th century.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I didn't express myself at all well and I'm not sure I can, other than to say that I think Brahms shows more awareness of and respect for classical forms in the shaping of his music. However, as always I'm open to correction. I have never sat down and analysed anything by the "heavier" Romantics like Bruckner because, frankly, it's not my cup of tea.

[EdgeleyRob]

Structurally they're conventional and expressively they're pretty unadventurous too. In my opinion of course. I would say the same things about the op.80 quartet in fact, which I had a listen to earlier on. I find it only emotionally uninhibited relative to Mendelssohn's other output: in comparison with Beethoven (its obvious source) or with Mendelssohn's friend Berlioz I still find it a polite and decaffeinated version of Romanticism.

I put Op 80 up there with the late LvB Quartets.
More expert opinion tends to share your view so what do I know ?

[Stanfordian]

I put Op 80 up there with the late LvB Quartets.
More expert opinion tends to share your view so what do I know ?

Hiya EdgeleyRob,

This criticism of Mendelssohn is not new by any means. I love Mendelssohn's music. If others don't rate it, I accept it as they are entitled to their opinion. It's all about personal taste in my view.

[ahinton]

I put Op 80 up there with the late LvB Quartets.
More expert opinion tends to share your view so what do I know ?

I wouldn't quite go that far but I would go a long way towards it in respect of that particular work.

[Vile Consort]

It is not entirely true that most organ works by later composers are early works.

Schoenberg's "Variations on a Recitative" were composed in 1941. Nielsen's monumental work for organ, "Commotio", was composed after his six symphonies. And of course, Brahms's final work was a set of chorale preludes for organ.

[Richard Barrett]

I'd try to persuade RB to listen to the Leipzigers in Op.80

I will when I get the chance. I was listening to the Emersons, not a quartet I have much time for in general but there was a Youtube of it with a score. Part of the reason I'm not keen on Mendelssohn is connected with part of the reason I'm not very keen on Brahms - the classicism that Vox Humana mentions: whatever "progressive" aspects there are in Brahms they occur almost exclusively within conventional forms, and that kind of tension between form and material doesn't interest me as much as the idea of new materials demanding and creating new forms. I don't really know what "expert opinion" has to say on Mendelssohn, I'm just responding to what I hear like everyone else.