Cathedral choirs on Today Programme

[W.Kearns]

Agreed, Jean and well said. Thanks, terratogen, for your deft exposition.

[Old Grumpy]

I find this is a really interesting discussion. I am not part of the Anglican choral tradition, but am part of the Anglican tradition. It is my personal view that the choral output of the C of E is enhanced by the presence of both girls and women in the cathedral choirs. One day (in the not too distant future) there will be female Anglican bishops in England too!

OG

[decantor]

I find this is a really interesting discussion. I am not part of the Anglican choral tradition, but am part of the Anglican tradition. It is my personal view that the choral output of the C of E is enhanced by the presence of both girls and women in the cathedral choirs. One day (in the not too distant future) there will be female Anglican bishops in England too!

OG, I cheer your POV to the rafter on all counts. But you have not addressed the issue that concerns some of us. If girls and women eventually supplanted boys on the treble line, would the cathedral choral output remain "enhanced"? And that outcome is a possibility long-term, given that girls and women are easier to recruit and train, and, in some cases, less expensive to maintain. Do you value the part boys still play, or are they not worth the trouble?

[DracoM]

<< Do you value the part boys still play, or are they not worth the trouble? >>

..............or worth the trouble after centuries of being written for by countless numbers of composers?

One or two composers on this Forum have regularly opined that there is no difference between writing for boys and girls leading a choir. Really? What about writing for boys / girls / women? Does a composer genuinely not take into account the special timbres and capacities of each group when writing?

[Gabriel Jackson]

<< Do you value the part boys still play, or are they not worth the trouble? >>

..............or worth the trouble after centuries of being written for by countless numbers of composers?

One or two composers on this Forum have regularly opined that there is no difference between writing for boys and girls leading a choir. Really? What about writing for boys / girls / women? Does a composer genuinely not take into account the special timbres and capacities of each group when writing?

For my part, I have answered this question before, and asking it again is not going to get the answer you want. I frequently write pieces (as I'm sure many of my colleagues do) for people I have never heard. Of course, with a group that one is familiar with, taking into account their capabilities, strengths and weaknesses does inform the composition, but the gender of child trebles does not.

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=terratogen;382700]I can't speak for the terrific girls at St Albans (though the fact that they hardly ever get the CE broadcast despite their abilities would certainly make me feel second best, were I a girl chorister there) but I would be very surprised if there isn't the feeling amongst some girl choristers in similarly-structured front lines (or even amongst those who are regarded as one half of the trebles of the cathedral choir) that they aren't given the chance to prove themselves in the same way that the boys are.

terratogen

The Abbey girls at St Albans have plenty of chances to show off their skills. They are singing the Ash Wednesday service tonight with the men for example. It is one of their particular services and was broadcast a few years back under Simon Johnson.

Similarly they have many other high profile cathedral/ Diocesan services and concerts of their own, some other broadcast events and share touring with the boys ( the boys go one year the girls the next ).

The other broadcast CE they made under Andrew Parnell was a recorded evensong for transmission during the summer holiday period when none of the usual choir services would be taking place in the cathedral.

The boys and men of the cathedral choir, however, sing the great majority of the normal daily round of cathedral services and this is reflected in CE from St Albans.

The distinction between the choirs is a valid one. The Abbey girls do different things to the boys, sing different music, give the boys some some well deserved rest at times at times, are clearly advertised on the music list leaving no room for confusion and the choir is the Assistant Master of the Music's own domain to run in his own way and provide him with useful experience.

VCC.

[Alison]

What's so wrong with having a preference for one or the other?

[DracoM]

You might say that - I couldn't possibly comment!

[Wolsey]

..... But you have not addressed the issue that concerns some of us. If girls and women eventually supplanted boys on the treble line, would the cathedral choral output remain "enhanced"? And that outcome is a possibility long-term, given that girls and women are easier to recruit and train, and, in some cases, less expensive to maintain. Do you value the part boys still play, or are they not worth the trouble?

A generation has now passed since the introduction of girls singing the top line in a cathedral choir, so any 'concerns' can be addressed by the evidence of history. From the evidence of twenty-two years, I find it hard to conclude that girls and women have "supplanted boys on the treble line".

[mopsus]

Surely Salisbury's reaction to the unpleasant visitor should have been the opposite of what it was? If she'd known in advance it was the girls, she could have stayed away and not upset anyone; it would have been her loss.

In any case after 20+ years there can be few such people left. Wells Cathedral says which top line is singing on the music list; Bath Abbey does not and I can't believe worshippers in Wells are so much more enlightened than those in supposedly more sophisticated Bath. Not to tell people seems patronising to me, because it assumes that your reasons for wanting to know are the 'wrong' ones.

The question of what female choral scholars can move on to after university remains open though. Few places outside London have parish choirs of a comparable standard to even an average Cambridge college choir. There are a few more opportunities than there used to be; Manchester Cathedral voluntary choir went mixed a few years ago, very welcome in a city with an almost total absence of parish church choirs.