Cathedral choirs on Today Programme

[DracoM]

I was not suggesting it was the only route - no-one is - but manifestly if one of the more traditional routes into music / singing seem to be slowly drying up. it stands to reason that there will have to be other routes developed more rigorously.

To many, boys do not sound the same as girls singing a treble line, and some would further argue that sooner rather than later that maybe DoMs / we will not have a choice.

[jean]

Come off it, jean, you KNOW what I meant.

You mentioned Iestyn Davies, and I reflected that he had said that if women were allowed to sing as altos in cathedral choirs, there would not be places for the men who wanted to sing as altos.

This doesn't argue an undersupply of men, does it?

http://doesithurtandotherthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/this-is-record-of-joan.html

[Gabriel Jackson]

I was not suggesting it was the only route - no-one is - but manifestly if one of the more traditional routes into music / singing seem to be slowly drying up. it stands to reason that there will have to be other routes developed more rigorously.

To many, boys do not sound the same as girls singing a treble line, and some would further argue that sooner rather than later that maybe DoMs / we will not have a choice.

But it isn't drying up. Yes, recruitment of boys may be harder in some places than it once was, but the idea that girls are somehow "taking over" and driving boys away simply isn't true.

[ardcarp]

I have been interested to discover how few professional male singers of my acquaintance (and there are plenty of them) were boy trebles anywhere.

There are quite a few. But boys' singing, wherever, (school choirs, secular mixed choirs , e.g. Finchley Children's Music Group) is pretty important because tenors and basses who know a bit about singing are much less likely to spring up from a non-singing background. Correct me if I'm wrong, but many other sorts of musician (instrumentalists, composers even) got their first love of music from singing as kids. I can think of quite a few of these too. The sad thing is, the independent sector seems to offer far wider opportunities...not sad for them of course, but sad for those children who never have the music within themselves drawn out by people with some expertise.

[DracoM]

But it isn't drying up. Yes, recruitment of boys may be harder in some places than it once was, but the idea that girls are somehow "taking over" and driving boys away simply isn't true.

OK, well, various foundations on the the BBC's weekly CE which have both boy-led and girl-led front lines seem sometimes intent on showcasing the girls over the boys with some regularity. Mr Quinney and Peterborough a case in point? Hence the inference might be drawn that there are fewer boys and possibly even of inferior standard?

I can thoroughly understand why a DoM / Dean and Chapter might want to do that - keen to demonstrate girls being given equal opportunities etc etc / things have changed / the bastion is down etc etc , and such a policy will attract more input etc, of course, so it looks like win-win, but,....but..............!!

[decantor]

OK, well, various foundations on the the BBC's weekly CE which have both boy-led and girl-led front lines seem sometimes intent on showcasing the girls over the boys with some regularity. Mr Quinney and Peterborough a case in point? Hence the inference might be drawn that there are fewer boys and possibly even of inferior standard?

When Worcester gave their girl trebles a first broadcast outing on Jan 29, following the girls of Peterborough and Salisbury, my bias towards the traditional led me to wonder, like Draco, whether the girl units were being regularly 'showcased' to establish the foundation's equality credentials.

I therefore undertook a count of how often, since Jan 2013, each type of top line had been featured on CE. The result was: Boys 25 (plus 3 more in archives), Girls 5, Mixed Boys & Girls 4, Women 13, Unknown 7.

The figures are not rigorous, and to some extent depend on my imperfect knowledge of the choral foundations, since the composition of the choir is not always announced, and sometimes actually concealed; I think I didn't include carol services. However, as things stand, the all-male choir seems to be going strong, and there could be little complaint if the girls were henceforth featured rather more regularly where they are helping to shoulder the burden of the Opus Dei.

[Gabriel Jackson]

OK, well, various foundations on the the BBC's weekly CE which have both boy-led and girl-led front lines seem sometimes intent on showcasing the girls over the boys with some regularity.

So every time boys broadcast, it is similarly because the girls aren't good enough?

Mr Quinney and Peterborough a case in point? Hence the inference might be drawn that there are fewer boys and possibly even of inferior standard?

I suppose anyone who is determined to believe that girls are/will be the ruination of the cathedral tradition will not be persuaded otherwise by reason or facts.

[DracoM]

Whatever, GJ, whatever.

[Magnificat]

When Worcester gave their girl trebles a first broadcast outing on Jan 29, following the girls of Peterborough and Salisbury, my bias towards the traditional led me to wonder, like Draco, whether the girl units were being regularly 'showcased' to establish the foundation's equality credentials.

I therefore undertook a count of how often, since Jan 2013, each type of top line had been featured on CE. The result was: Boys 25 (plus 3 more in archives), Girls 5, Mixed Boys & Girls 4, Women 13, Unknown 7.

The figures are not rigorous, and to some extent depend on my imperfect knowledge of the choral foundations, since the composition of the choir is not always announced, and sometimes actually concealed; I think I didn't include carol services. However, as things stand, the all-male choir seems to be going strong, and there could be little complaint if the girls were henceforth featured rather more regularly where they are helping to shoulder the burden of the Opus Dei.

decantor

I have often been accused of being prejudiced against girls singing CE. I am not. I am prejudiced against poor singing by whichever forces are used and any criticisms I have made about a choir have not been aimed at the kids but at the director of music. I have also often complimented a girls' top line on their singing.

For historical reasons only I do regard the boys and men as the first team and like you if these forces are singing CE my bias towards the traditional is obviously satisfied.

For this reason also if a newly appointed DoM makes his/her first broadcast CE, which is usually at least a year after being appointed, with girls and not boys it worries me because there should be a competent boys' choir up and running by then and it should be able to sing CE if only a very musically straightforward service.

I like to know whether it is boys or girls broadcasting because it is not always possible to tell and it is simply good to know exactly who you are listening to and as long as the singing is competent I am happy.

When it is impossible to find out exactly who is singing ( the concealment you refer to ) it drives me mad because there is no need for it and I wonder just why this is done.

I do get concerned when boys and girls are seemingly always mixed to broadcast especially when the cathedral's music list shows that boys and girls are used separately with the men for the usual daily services. I wonder why this should need to be. It is this mixing which will ultimately drive boys out of cathedral choirs as it has parish church choirs. I was particularly concerned when trawling through the Peterborough music list to find out which forces were singing recently to note that the weekly upper voices service is apparently always sung by mixed voices.

If a boys' choir exists and is never used to broadcast CE similarly I also tend to be concerned.

Where a cathedral has both boys' and girls' choirs it seems that where there is no distinction made between the traditional choir of boys and men and the newer girls' choir, i.e. the cathedral choir is defined as consisting of the boys, girls and men, CE broadcasts are shared between both.

It is interesting that at St Albans where a distinction is made between the cathedral choir of boys and men and the very fine Abbey girls' choir ( a proper girls' choir of exactly the same age range as the boys and not young women as are many so- called girls' choirs ) who sing services both on their own and with the men of the cathedral choir, CE broadcasts are invariably by the cathedral choir. The Abbey girls' choir have broadcast CE only twice since their formation in 1996 but are as good as any that have made many more. ( By the way, I sat through evensong services sung by this choir when it started up and was quite awful - and people call me prejudiced!! ).

VCC.

[Miles Coverdale]

When it is impossible to find out exactly who is singing ( the concealment you refer to ) it drives me mad because there is no need for it and I wonder just why this is done.

It is done, I imagine, so that people cannot base their decision to listen to or attend a service (or not) on the gender of those singing the top line.

Just as there are those who will not take communion from a female priest on the grounds that she is not a 'proper vicar', so there are those who think that a girls' choir is not and cannot be a 'proper' cathedral choir. Your description of St Albans in some ways makes my point for me. The girls' choir, despite apparently being as good as 'any' boys' choir, has only ever broadcast twice, and is not referred to as the cathedral choir. If I were a member of that choir, I think I would find it difficult to avoid the feeling that it is in some way second best.

[fsharpminor]

It is done, I imagine, so that people cannot base their decision to listen to or attend a service (or not) on the gender of those singing the top line.

Just as there are those who will not take communion from a female priest on the grounds that she is not a 'proper vicar', so there are those who think that a girls' choir is not and cannot be a 'proper' cathedral choir. Your description of St Albans in some ways makes my point for me. The girls' choir, despite apparently being as good as 'any' boys' choir, has only ever broadcast twice, and is not referred to as the cathedral choir. If I were a member of that choir, I think I would find it difficult to avoid the feeling that it is in some way second best.

Why? The St Alban's distinction between the Cathedral Choir and the Abbey Girls Choir seems entirely sensible, and there is no hint, as far as I am aware, of any sort of 'second-best' discrimination. The S Alban's girls are in every way the equal of any boy's choir - and under their current director, the Assistant Dircetor of Music Tom Winpenny, go from strength to strength. Less of the misogeny, please!

[chorister49]

For many adult women singers, the fact that they were denied the opportunity to sing as girls in cathedral choirs, and even in parish choirs, is a matter of great regret. Women are still largely discriminated against in cathedral choirs with very few opportunities to sing in a role that matches that of men.

Despite the fact that women have been discriminated against for so many years, our choral societies, chamber choirs and community choirs are packed full of adult sopranos and altos. So why is there this insistence that if boys don't have the opportunity to sing cathedral choirs we won't have any tenors and basses in the future? Don't get me wrong, I'm very keen for boys to sing, I recognise the importance of learning the skills and art of music making as part of a fulfilling childhood, and the fact that gaining that experience early gives people confidence to come back to singing later in life, even if they have a break from singing at some point as many people do. I encourage and cajole my own 13 year old son to continue singing in his parish choir despite his occasional grumbles, and the competition for his time on the sporting field. I just think that it's absolutely right that the opportunities should exist equally for everyone - boys, girls, men AND women.

[terratogen]

Why? The St Alban's distinction between the Cathedral Choir and the Abbey Girls Choir seems entirely sensible, and there is no hint, as far as I am aware, of any sort of 'second-best' discrimination. The S Alban's girls are in every way the equal of any boy's choir - and under their current director, the Assistant Dircetor of Music Tom Winpenny, go from strength to strength. Less of the misogeny, please!

I can't speak for the terrific girls at St Albans (though the fact that they hardly ever get the CE broadcast despite their abilities would certainly make me feel second best, were I a girl chorister there) but I would be very surprised if there isn't the feeling amongst some girl choristers in similarly-structured front lines (or even amongst those who are regarded as one half of the trebles of the cathedral choir) that they aren't given the chance to prove themselves in the same way that the boys are.

A certain group once shared an anecdote of a visitor who, upon realising that the girls and men were on that particular evening, left some of Salisbury's girls in tears after remarking to the DoM that she had come to hear the proper choir sing and would not be staying. (This, if I remember, is precisely why Salisbury stopped indicating boys or girls in the music list.) I also recall reading a comment from a former Bristol girl chorister who said that the then fairly new girls were certainly made to feel like the poor relations of the 'real' choir there.

The list goes on and can comprise even subtle things that might initially seem insignificant: in an interview, one of the choristers in Canterbury's new girls' choir expressed delight upon finding out that the girls would be vested in cassocks and surplices rather than in a distinct new set of albs/tabards/etc. that would visually other them from everyone else in the cathedral's music team. I thought it rather nice; in that respect, at least, the girls aren't being restricted to the periphery.

[W.Kearns]

That's a really heartening post, chorister49. Thank you so much.

[jean]

And a great post from terratogen.