Cathedral choirs on Today Programme

[Magnificat]

What isn't often talked about is the very real problems with recruiting men. That's never going to be a difficulty in London (or Oxford and Cambridge) but in many smaller cathedral cities good men who want/are able to make that major commitment to a liturgical choir can be quite thin on the ground.

Gabriel,

The article does, in fact, touch on this. I was rather surprised to read that Winchester has had problems in this respect.

VCC

[Magnificat]

The modern awareness of historic paedophilia must deter many men from joining cathedral choirs, and also deter many parents from permitting their children to join.

Honoured Guest,

In my opinion cathedrals are the safest places for children these days. Their safeguarding procedures are very vigorous indeed. Even flower ladies have had to undergo the legal checks in some places ( rather over the top and probably illegal itself ).

VCC

[Despina dello Stagno]

The modern awareness of historic paedophilia must deter many men from joining cathedral choirs

The only example of historic intrachoral paedophiia that comes readily to mind is that of Richard Bellamy (?1743 - 1813). After a bout of alcohol induced "great indecency" with the boys at St Paul's he was hauled before the Bow Street magistrates, and narrowly avoided a lynch mob organised by the women of the town. He was however stripped of his posts of Almoner and Master of the Boys at St Paul's Cathedral, and his singing positions at Westminster Abbey and at the Chapel Royal. As observed by R.J.S. Stevens: "Drunkenness, I suppose, brought on a temporary insanity, foolishness! and beastliness!" In the era of rum, sodomy and the lash, drunkenness was perhaps the more prevalent crime.

As it is still today, pace the tabloid cassandras. (No reference to the Daily Mirror's Cassandra intended).

[jean]

Despina dello Stagno! I remember that name!

[Despina dello Stagno]

Would that I ofttimes could!

However, I do remember am article on this subject on Today twice before (they cover it once a decade mayhap). I remember this, since the introductory pieces on those occasions were so memorable: Lassus' "Angelus ad pastores ait" with myself as no mean alto, and Robert Carver's "O Bone Jesu" (Taverner Consort) - the first time I had heard it, and quite stunning on a breakfast current affairs programme. Neither exactly in the mainstream of the Anglican tradition (although the former does at least appear in thr Dow partbooks, I.I.R.C.)

[Wolsey]

The modern awareness of historic paedophilia must deter many men from joining cathedral choirs, and also deter many parents from permitting their children to join.

And your evidence for this? I would be interested to know if you can cite any choral foundation which in 2014 does *not* fulfil its statutory safeguarding obligations.

[Honoured Guest]

And your evidence for this? I would be interested to know if you can cite any choral foundation which in 2014 does *not* fulfil its statutory safeguarding obligations.

I made no comment at all about incidence of paedophilia today. To repeat myself, I wrote: "modern awareness of historic paedophilia". I know colleagues who view all priests as potential paedophiles, which anecdotally supports my statement. And the number of male primary school teachers is tiny, partly because many men don't want the hassle of dealing with similar parental fears. I repeat again, this is due to historic abuse, and I make no comment on current incidence.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I made no comment at all about incidence of paedophilia today. To repeat myself, I wrote: "modern awareness of historic paedophilia". I know colleagues who view all priests as potential paedophiles, which anecdotally supports my statement. And the number of male primary school teachers is tiny, partly because many men don't want the hassle of dealing with similar parental fears. I repeat again, this is due to historic abuse, and I make no comment on current incidence.

So some of your colleagues (whoever they may be) think all priests are potential paedophiles. That is hardly evidence for the assertion that "modern awareness of historic paedophilia" (whatever that is supposed to mean) puts men off joining cathedral choirs and puts parents off having their children join cathedral choirs.

[teamsaint]

I made no comment at all about incidence of paedophilia today. To repeat myself, I wrote: "modern awareness of historic paedophilia". I know colleagues who view all priests as potential paedophiles, which anecdotally supports my statement. And the number of male primary school teachers is tiny, partly because many men don't want the hassle of dealing with similar parental fears. I repeat again, this is due to historic abuse, and I make no comment on current incidence.

At least 20% of new Jumior school trainee teachers are male, and this has risen by 20% in five years.
Small but hardly tiny, and not really evidence of a fears of the particular kind that you mention.

[Oldcrofter]

I presume many choir men under retirement age have "normal" jobs and find it difficult to ensure they can be in situ by 3.15 pm during the week ready for choral evensong (or an hour later). Equally, Saturday at 4pm may be tricky. I have no personal knowledge of choral foundations so have no idea of what the proportion of working v. (semi) retired men are singing, or indeed what jobs they have.

Nor can many guarantee that their place of singing is easily accessible from their place of work, or that there are parking spaces available near at hand.

I'm sure someone can enlighten me as to how adult cathedral choristers organise their other professional duties alongside their choir commitments.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I presume many choir men under retirement age have "normal" jobs and find it difficult to ensure they can be in situ by 3.15 pm during the week ready for choral evensong (or an hour later). Equally, Saturday at 4pm may be tricky.

It's not as early as that - 5pm, 5.30, 6...in most places. But the hours are very difficult, as you say

[DracoM]

If fewer boys are recruited / encouraged to sing in cathedral etc etc foundations, the training arc, the familiarity with schedule/music etc will dribble to a trickle, thus fewer men will be educated by and thus familiar enough with the work of such a choir to see it as any part of a career. Ditto wider professional singing field - think Gerald Finley, Iestyn Davies etc.

Not rocket science.

[jean]

That's the problem with girls, isn't it - they don't turn into tenors or basses in the normal course of things.

But they may turn into altos - and wasn't it part of Iestyn Davies's argument that allowing them to sing as adults in cathedral choirs would take the bread from the mouths of aspiring male alto lay clerks?

[DracoM]

Come off it, jean, you KNOW what I meant.

I didn't say don't recruit / encourage girls. I said if you don't encourage boys, you will almost certainly breed far fewer highly trained men singers in all manner of fields of music. And actually not a lot of girls DO turn into tenors and basses, so maybe eventually it will be female only cathedral choirs. Would you welcome that?

[Gabriel Jackson]

If fewer boys are recruited / encouraged to sing in cathedral etc etc foundations, the training arc, the familiarity with schedule/music etc will dribble to a trickle, thus fewer men will be educated by and thus familiar enough with the work of such a choir to see it as any part of a career. Ditto wider professional singing field - think Gerald Finley, Iestyn Davies etc.

Not rocket science.

Gerald Finley and Iestyn Davies are quite unusual. I have been interested to discover how few professional male singers of my acquaintance (and there are plenty of them) were boy trebles anywhere.