CE Southwell Minster 18th December 2013

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=Alison;362711 Delighted to come across Jacqui Jones again whom I remember from Chelmsford. .[/QUOTE]

By far and away the best intoning from a woman we have heard on CE in recent times. Invariably they have been awful. This lady could at least sing and sing very well indeed.

VCC

[mw963]

Well no, but I'm afraid I do "know what I like", which is a huge handicap a times.

I fully realise that *I* am the one missing out, because enjoyment and appreciation of music would - ideally - range through as great a variety of music as possible. And it's not that I'm unable to "acquire tastes", but there are certain styles (and it's mainly due to the harmonic structures employed I suspect) that I actually find almost painful.

So I genuinely envy those I term "experts" who have got past the barriers that I find strewn along the way, and Leighton's music does actually spoil (for me) a service. I honestly wish that it wasn't the case.....

[Roger Judd]

mw963; re. Leighton - I confess that I'm with you on this. During my time at Windsor, (probably rather naughtily), when any Leighton had to be accompanied, I immediately designated it a piece that the organ scholar needed to learn! The only piece of Leighton's that I absolutely love is his setting of the Coventry carol Lully, lulla, thou little tiny child which, IMO, is a miniature masterpiece, and with a final cadence that rivals Howells' in A spotless Rose.

Back to Southwell - I'm very fond of Wesley in E, probably as a result of being a chorister at Winchester Cathedral; I thought it came across well from Southwell, and it was a rare treat to hear the extended Gloria. It was lovely to hear the Stanford pieces too, and the Mendelssohn voluntary was brilliant. Thanks to Paul Hale and his team for giving us such a very genuine Advent service.
RJ

[mw963]

Well if the legendary Mr Judd is with me on this one then I feel very much better. And - if I may be so bold - I'll mention again that wonderful piece of Dupre (op 58?) that RJ played all those years ago at Windsor - I still have the recording - that certainly was another broadcast CE highlight for me.

[ardcarp]

I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for poor old Leighton! Blimey, his harmonic language isn't that extreme compared with, say, Tippett or even Rubbra. Personally I love the importance he attaches to rhythmic drive, something often missing in 21st cent composition. (Go on, shoot me down someone.)

Roger, didn't you have his Paean in your bag of tricks? A great piece, IMO.

[Roger Judd]

Yes, I did indeed give the Paean space in my bag - but not for a very long time, now! I've just recalled that I had to play some Leighton when I took my ARCO - it seemed very up-to-date then, about a hundred years ago!!

thanks, mw963, spare my blushes!
RJ

ps. sorry, too many exclamation marks ...

[ardcarp]

I've heard him [Leighton] for 30 years, I've sung him, and I think his music is ugly and spoils any religious contemplation.....

mw. Co-incidentally, I've just been giving one of Santa's CDs a spin, The Gabrieli Consort's Incarnation. On it is KL's A Hymn of the Nativity. It follows rather the same format as Lully Lulla, i.e. sop solo with scrummy chords underneath, plus a more vigorous bit in the middle. I defy anyone to find it anything other than very moving.

And if you're feeling totally intrepid, Britten's complete choral variations A Boy was Born are on the CD as well!

The whole disc is beautifully sung and presented. Our very own Chris Watson is on it. Surely recommendation enough?

I wonder though why the packaging has...

INCARNATION
McCREESH

...but no mention of the Gabrieli Consort on the front?

[mw963]

I will go and listen to your two recommendations I promise. But the Paean....? Has - for me - often merely piled on the misery of many a Leighton-themed broadcast CE!

And even led to the need to undertake another brew of tea!

But I fully concede that he wouldn't come up so often if DOMs didn't rate him so highly.....

And (oh dear, this is where I'll be drummed out for ever) I've never got on with Mr Britten's music either. And on that one I know there will be a deluge of support for him from his fans on here!

[Chris Watson]

mw. Co-incidentally, I've just been giving one of Santa's CDs a spin, The Gabrieli Consort's Incarnation. On it is KL's A Hymn of the Nativity. It follows rather the same format as Lully Lulla, i.e. sop solo with scrummy chords underneath, plus a more vigorous bit in the middle. I defy anyone to find it anything other than very moving.

And if you're feeling totally intrepid, Britten's complete choral variations A Boy was Born are on the CD as well!

The whole disc is beautifully sung and presented. Our very own Chris Watson is on it. Surely recommendation enough?

I wonder though why the packaging has...

INCARNATION
McCREESH

...but no mention of the Gabrieli Consort on the front?

Thanks Ardcarp! It's got some great moment on it. My favourite piece is (I think) the Howells, but I really love the Leighton too. It did take me a while to get into him, but I don't know a piece of his I don't like. The 4 carols (Lully, Hymn of the Nativity, Star Carol, Ode on the birth) the canticle settings (particularly the 2nd set), though the Col Mag is also fab - you can now get hold of a CD with the original BBC broadcast of it from Magdalen, sung alongside Harris Bring Us O Lord God (both pieces written in 1959). Drop, drop slow tears is also lovely and the double choir Mass setting is the equal of the Frank Martin (I reckon!).

As for A Boy Was Born - In the bleak and the Corpus Christi carol are beautiful but I'm afraid I think the rest of the piece is a bit naff....

[ardcarp]

As for A Boy Was Born - In the bleak and the Corpus Christi carol are beautiful but I'm afraid I think the rest of the piece is a bit naff...

Well. we'll have to disagree there! But what I should have mentioned is the serene and beautiful opening piece on the disc, Adam lay y-bounden, by another of our own, Matthew Martin.

[Vox Humana]

But the Paean....? Has - for me - often merely piled on the misery of many a Leighton-themed broadcast CE!

The problem with the Paean is that everyone takes it far too fast. I can't be bothered to look up the score, but, if memory serves, it is marked "alla marcia" or something to that effect. The only time I have heard it sound anything like a march was when Simon Preston gave one of its first performances - it may even have been the first. A very powerful impression it made too. I am sure the reason was that both Leighton's music and Preston's performance were a product of the swinging sixties - a decade when pop music echoed to the very solid and, above all, steady beats of rock and roll and rhythm and blues (and, before that, jazz). I have rarely heard the piece sound so meaty and powerful since. The main problem with a slower speed, however, is that the middle section is even more apt to sound like a clucking chicken than it does anyway.

I have to admit to admiring Leighton's music a very great deal. I don't like all of it by any means, but that is my fault, not Leighton's. Taste is a lousy indicator of quality because it's so subject to fashion, change and re-evaluation. Leighton was a man in full control of his musical language, both harmonically and contrapuntally. Any composer who can so consistently avoid idiomatic weaknesses as Leighton does gets my whole-hearted respect.

[ardcarp]

The problem with the Paean is that everyone takes it far too fast

Indeed. A frequent problem too is ignoring the 'rhetoric' of those opening note-clusters. They are surely meant to be toccata-like, and especially in a decent acoustic one can allow a little rubato and perhaps extra time between one and the next. All too often they are dashed off, making the opening seem trite.

[Wolsey]

The problem with the Paean is that everyone takes it far too fast. I can't be bothered to look up the score, but, if memory serves, it is marked "alla marcia" or something to that effect. [...] The main problem with a slower speed, however, is that the middle section is even more apt to sound like a clucking chicken than it does anyway.

The Allegro marziale has a crotchet = c.104 metronome mark, and its recapitulation is marked crotchet = 92, so the composer's wishes regarding tempi can't be in doubt. The work is also bristling with precise articulation markings, but I fear that these are heard in relatively few performances.

Indeed. A frequent problem too is ignoring the 'rhetoric' of those opening note-clusters. They are surely meant to be toccata-like, and especially in a decent acoustic one can allow a little rubato and perhaps extra time between one and the next. All too often they are dashed off, making the opening seem trite.

The rubato instruction (declamato ed un poco liberamente), the "extra time" (i.e. the commas) and other directions for the opening bars are all in the score for those who have eyes to see - and ears to hear...

[mw963]

- and ears to hear...

Well that's me out of the equation. But I'm grateful to those who have defended - with such insight - Leighton's music following my initial comments. You really are "illuminati", but sadly I don't think the light will ever dawn - let alone shine - on me as far as KL's music is concerned!

[Vox Humana]

The Allegro marziale has a crotchet = c.104 metronome mark, and its recapitulation is marked crotchet = 92, so the composer's wishes regarding tempi can't be in doubt. The work is also bristling with precise articulation markings, but I fear that these are heard in relatively few performances.


The rubato instruction (declamato ed un poco liberamente), the "extra time" (i.e. the commas) and other directions for the opening bars are all in the score for those who have eyes to see - and ears to hear...

Exactly so, Wolsey, on both counts. And yet the few live performances I have heard in recent years have all been nearer crotchet = 120. Maybe I've just been unlucky. I can only assume that it's a case of, as one organist put it to me a while back (not about this piece), "Oh I don't bother too much about what the composer wants!"