Peterborough pitch change

[ardcarp]

Glad to be in agreement with Chris W (though not sure about the sporting metaphor! #27) Singing regularly at a standard pitch, ones voice gets used to it and 'knows' where the notes lie. Singing, for instance, VWs Let all the World at Lichfield, that top A feels bloody high if you're a tenor.

Despite MrGG's free thinking on the subject, the whole point of International Pitch being agreed at A440 was that everyone could play with everyone else wherever they happened to be. That some orchestras are now going for A442 is really annoying IMV.

[Cornet IV]

[QUOTE=Chris Watson;355604]Cornet IV - I've no idea who you are, but sitting at my desk in Oxford I like to imagine that I'm addressing a charming bearded sandal-wearing gentleman of a certain age who's probably very knowledgeable about wind pressures and mutations and really quite passionate about the King of Instruments but who is living in a world of ideals rather than the reality of 21st century daily music making, and the demands/technical problems of singing at nearly-but-not-quite a semitone higher than what has now (quite possibly regrettably) become normal pitch. QUOTE]

Mr Watson, do allow me to introduce myself. I hope not to disappoint you when I explain that I am not bearded and most emphatically am a sandal wearer in neither the sartorial nor political senses. Undeniably I am of certain age, there's no escaping that, and of the male gender (if I am allowed to say that without disturbing the PC motivated sensibilities of the sexually confused) and in moments of uncharacteristic vanity might admit to "charming". Thank you for that one!

As my moniker might indicate, I am an organist and have been since 1949, although I no longer play to the standard of the cathedral assistant post I once occupied for a short period. I also have been a treble and subsequently a lay clerk, so I am not unfamiliar with the scene here. Nevertheless, I freely admit I may be living "in a world of ideals rather than the reality of 21st century daily music making." To be frank, I try to avoid the ghastliness that is the 21st century. I accept the validity of your points concerning voice/pitch. I am not suggesting that there are not difficulties associated with this - the essence of my argument is that Peterborough is seeking to employ a large and expensive hammer to crack a nut of questionable consequence. If the costly re-tuning the organ (which is likely to be more difficult when reducing the pitch) is considered an option, why can the choir voices not similarly be re-tuned and at rather less expense? Why can the choir not sing the work in D flat instead of E flat? Or is that being too simplistic?

I would be the last to think an electronic device to be a proper substitute for the King of Instruments but I acknowledge that current generation digital organs are extraordinarily good and entirely suitable for most applications. It is not necessary to have a Cavaille-Coll for the performance of Saint-Saens 3; the listening audience would not be able to distinguish such from a suitably-sized Allen, for example. And the latter would be blessed with infinitely variable tuning.

[MrGongGong]

Despite MrGG's free thinking on the subject, the whole point of International Pitch being agreed at A440 was that everyone could play with everyone else wherever they happened to be. That some orchestras are now going for A442 is really annoying IMV.

I know that IS the idea
BUT (and we have been here before ref. Eroica) the reality is that A=440 isn't what happens.......it never was

The Royal Academy of music has in it's collection tuning forks made for Henry Wood, there are different ones for the strings and wind, at different pitches.

[ardcarp]

The Royal Academy of music has in it's collection tuning forks made for Henry Wood, there are different ones for the strings and wind, at different pitches.

I'm sure they have, GG, but isn't that missing the point? They are OLD tuning forks....and the whole idea of International pitch is that eevryone can use the same tuning fork of A440. I've inherited some old (rusty) tuning forks too, with names such as 'Diapason Normal' and 'New Philharmonic'. They have nothing but antiquarian interest.

To confuse the denizens of Peterborough even more (if they're bothered, which I doubt ) I've been thinking about why so many old organs were sharp. Excuse the cod-maths and cod-physics.

A pipe of 8' in length (being theoretically open at both ends) supports half a wavelength, so the wavelength is 16'. The speed of sound is approx 1100 feet per second. The frequency produced is thus 1100 divided by 16 which equals 68.75 Hz. This is the pitch of the bottom C on the organ keyboard. If you double that figure twice you get a middle C of 275 Hz. This is considerably sharper than the International Standard middle C of 261.65

In other words, the bottom C diapason (for instance) needs to be slightly longer than 8' to conform to modern standard pitch.

Why 8' was chosen historically, who knows? The French presumably used 'feet' as well, because 'pieds' is used by their organ builders.

These are the ramblings of a rank (no pun intended) amateur so maybe someone with some expertise in organ building can pipe up?

[MrGongGong]

The point about the tuning forks is not their age BUT that the idea that there is ONE universal pitch that everyone tunes to, it's interesting that the wind and the strings in an orchestra would tune to different pitches then play together.
and the truth of "international pitch" is that there isn't one as 442 is more common in many places than 440
the old organs were't "sharp" at all as being "sharp" is a purely relative thing (unless you go with the Universe is in Bb thing ? which means that most of us are FLAT )
I once had an interesting chat about this with Andy Scott (from Harrison and Harrison who tunes the RFH) and he was telling me how they used to tune one side of the organ different to the other so that in the course of a performance the two sides would equalise as the temperature and humidity changed

Attempts at "fixing" pitch will always be doomed to failure as many instruments sound 'better' at different ones , not just my Tabla mates but string players will often play sharper and so on.
And (again) regardless what some oboeists will say about them tuning to an electronic tuner etc (if you hear how much a player like Melinda Maxwell can bend a note then the 'fixed' pitch of the oboe becomes a bit of a funny idea) harpists (who do have to spend hours tuning every string) will tell you that the A played for tuning is rarely the 440hz that they have been told that they will play at. This is one reason why Henry Wood had the two tuning forks which he insisted his orchestra tune to before going onto the platform.

I'm not an organist or organ builder but from the conversations I have had in the past with people who really know this subject would suggest that it's much more complex (and interesting) than folks (and i'm not suggesting anyone here is !) would simply say that we should all do the same thing as that's what is most convenient or simple. The organ in Reading Town hall sounds wonderful to my ears.

[ardcarp]

I just love the way you think outside the box GG. I'm afraid that dull, earthbound hacks such as myself are tethered to conformity. Indeed, oboists giving an A these days stare at a little Korg electronic gadget to make sure the virtual pointer is in the middle! String players suck their teeth if it isn't. Maybe oboists should give up the black box and adjust their A up or down according to tooth-sucking from the first violins?

harpists (who do have to spend hours tuning every string) will tell you that the A played for tuning is rarely the 440hz that they have been told that they will play at.

They don't actually spend hours; in fact they do it amazingly quickly, and I regret to say many of them use a little black box too nowadays...though I gather learning the harp still includes how to tune it by ear. Harpists traditionally use a Cflat tuning fork so they can tune all the strings with the pedals up. Then putting the pedals into the midway position puts the harp into C major.

[MrGongGong]

They don't actually spend hours; in fact they do it amazingly quickly, and I regret to say many of them use a little black box too nowadays...though I gather learning the harp still includes how to tune it by ear. Harpists traditionally use a Cflat tuning fork so they can tune all the strings with the pedals up. Then putting the pedals into the midway position puts the harp into C major.

Indeed
So when they have tuned to A=440 why do they so frequently have to retune after an oboe note ?
Learning the harp also includes how to reverse a Volvo 940 into a tight parking space

I don't play the harp or the oboe either but spend a lot of time with folks who do.

[ardcarp]

Learning the harp also includes how to reverse a Volvo 940 into a tight parking space

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Harping" on about 442 is meaningless, as it's incredibly difficult for ordinary mortals to tell the difference. I do play the oboe and always give A = 440, but that's at the beginning of a rehearsal/performance. Once the orchestra has been playing for a few minutes, it has gone sharper anyway. But setting an initial standard at least minimises the confusion.

(I didn't think Volvo drivers knew how to park.)

[Cornet IV]

"Harping" on about 442 is meaningless, as it's incredibly difficult for ordinary mortals to tell the difference. I do play the oboe and always give A = 440, but that's at the beginning of a rehearsal/performance. Once the orchestra has been playing for a few minutes, it has gone sharper anyway. But setting an initial standard at least minimises the confusion.

Quite so. And the warming process is accelerated by the heat generated by powerful stage lights. I was at an Oistrakh concert years ago when a glass globe detached itself from the rest of such a lamp and crashed to the floor. This caused considerable agitation amongst the off-stage KGB minders.

But pity the poor harpsichordist who often is required to tune his instrument to some unequal temperament. Programmes or transpositions have to be chosen carefully so that, with a bit of luck, retuning can be confined to the interval (no pun!). He is limited to performing in very few keys before he hits the wolf and the whole business can become a nightmare. Manageable perhaps on a simple virginal but becomes a magnum opus with a French double. I think that the early music brigade can get just a bit tree-hugging (and dare I say "sandal wearing"?) about the "authenticity" thing.

Anyway, a bit off-topic as far as Peterborough is concerned and where the king's new suit of clothes seems destined to remain on full display.

[mopsus]

I've recently been to Peterborough, and while there were displays about various projects for which funds were being raised - including an invitation to donate to the music fund, placed prominently below a flower display at the eastern end of the nave - I couldn't see anything about the proposal to re-pitch the organ. Nor did the Precentor mention it when he was talking about 'Peterborough pitch' with our choir. Nor can I see a reference to it on the Cathedral's web site (as ever, I am willing to be corrected on this). The only reference I could find was in 'Portico', the Cathedral magazine for spring/summer 2014, which was published just after Robert Quinney got the New College job, which said that about 1/3 of the necessary cost had been raised. So what is the latest news? How is the fundraising going?