CE Blackburn Cathedral Oct 16th 2013

[ardcarp]

You can still answer it, Jean. In fact, when you've had a go maybe I'll chip in as well, as I have a family (3 generations) of singing girls/women/females/ladies whose voices are not un-unique.

[jean]

Not me.

I don't use the word for boy trebles myself, and though I may have my suspicions about why anyone else might, it's really not for me to say.

[DracoM]

Hey, come off it, jean, you can't get away with something as darkly gnomic as that!! Explain, do!!

[Wolsey]

...and as regards the parish church near Preston it is just as obvious to me that the choirmaster has considerable energy and dynamism and is prepared to go out and recruit boys for his choir unlike some complacent, lazy cathedral organists!

And your evidence for this assertion? It's not the first time you've made uninformed swipes at cathedral Directors of Music, and as you've done so again, I need to remind you - again - that many 'complacent lazy cathedral organists' have been quietly involved for many years with the Choir Schools' Association's Outreach programme, and the annual round of cathedral choir Open Days/Be a Chorister for a Day has already begun.

What I would like to know, however, is how many cathedrals have a youth ministry or policy involving not just choristers but other children and young people in other activities?

I know of one well known member of a chapter ( who has written to the old BBC choir board and tangled with one or two of us on a particular matter ) who, when asked whether his cathedral did any youth work other than running the choirs, said they had no young people's policy at all and did not see that they should do anything as it was not what the cathedral was for! A very shortsighted attitude in my view as any church should be looking for ways to bring in the children - its future after all - and more boys and girls being involved is always an opportunity for chorister recruitment.

More radically I really think that every cathedral should have a parish not just act as the mother church of the diocese as it would be then able to become much more involved in its locality and again be able to reach out to more young people ( possibly more prospective choristers ) than currently darken its doors with, I would hope, a vigorous well resourced youth policy. I certainly know of cathedral clergy who would rise to this sort of challenge but whether the majority of D&Cs would want to disrupt their cosy lifestyles with some hard missionary work - probably not and again how short sighted this would be for the church.

In which case, what is the parish with a cathedral within its boundary supposed to do with its own work with its young people?

[ardcarp]

Well, I'm not going to be darkly gnomic. In fact I'm going to bore people with the following...

Mrs Ardcarp was not allowed, as a young girl, to sing in her tiny, tiddly village church choir because it was for boys only. Her brother, who sang like a drain, was. [Pax, mate.] Luckily she did a lot of singing at school and by the time she became a university music student she was in the vanguard of consort singing with a straight soprano voice.

Our three daughters were all blessed with similar voices and all sang in church choirs. Our eldest became an Oxbridge choral scholar and she and one of her sisters still sing regularly both as soloists and consort singers.

Our grand-daughters likewise are thus endowed, though one has a truly stonking voice-quality and a personality to match it. I can see her branching out into opera or jazz...too early to say.

All the above is not intended to crow about the Ardcarp family, but to show that I am hugely in favour of girls singing, and singing in church and cathedral choirs. No-one could have been more thrilled than I when Salisbury first broadcast CE with Richard Seal and the new girl choristers.

This does not alter the fact that I think it is vital that boys still sing, and have the same opportunities as I did as a kid. It is very difficult, for the social and cultural reasons we all know about, for boys to sing at secondary (and even primary) school these days...unless there is a music teacher of huge and rare charisma. Sometimes an all-male choir will be the environment which is best for them (look at that fantastic boys' choir from Warwickshire that won the BBCTV thing a few years ago). And whilst I am totally in favour of girls' choirs, mixed choirs, any sort of choirs, I would be sad if the tradition (and I use the word 'tradition' deliberately) of the all-male choir were entirely lost.

[DracoM]

Indeed. Entirely applauded.

However, I am still intrigued by jean's reluctance to use the term 'boy trebles' or what she meant by "though I may have my suspicions about why anyone else might, it's really not for me to say."

Erm??

[jean]

I am still intrigued by jean's reluctance to use the term 'boy trebles'...

No wonder you're intrigued, since what I wrote was not that, but this:

I don't use the word for boy trebles myself, and though I may have my suspicions about why anyone else might, it's really not for me to say.

The word, of course, was unique, and I was commenting on ff's

As a matter of interest (taking up one or two of the comments under the article, not here), if a boy treble sounds both different and unique, what does an 11-year-old girl sound like that makes her not unique?

The comments were these - both from the same contributor:


...The treble (boy) is a unique sound, and I fear that this will be lost someday...

...I am not knocking females in choirs. I'm all for girls taking part. BUT leave all boy choirs alone. There is a purity - NO, DO NOT MISREPRESENT ME by claiming I said boys sing better - and the treble voice is DIFFERENT, and unique indeed...


.

[DracoM]

Aha! Many thanks.

[Magnificat]

And your evidence for this assertion? It's not the first time you've made uninformed swipes at cathedral Directors of Music, and as you've done so again, I need to remind you - again - that many 'complacent lazy cathedral organists' have been quietly involved for many years with the Choir Schools' Association's Outreach programme, and the annual round of cathedral choir Open Days/Be a Chorister for a Day has already begun.

In which case, what is the parish with a cathedral within its boundary supposed to do with its own work with its young people?

Wolsey,

Yes, they have but these methods of recruitment are not working well enough as the reports of chorister numbers falling every year continue to show.

There is definitely not enough willingness to get out and search out potential choristers in other ways.

The Choir Schools' outreach programme which has now been taken up by cathedrals without associated schools, although admirable, is not primarily aimed at recruitment it is rather to use their resources to encourage schoolchildren to sing. Does it produce many recruits as an offshoot? It seems not.

It does seem to me that many parish church choirmasters so often written off, rather snobbishly, by the cathedral elite as hacks have much more drive and enthusiasm for getting out amongst kids from all backgrounds to find potential rather than just relying on those likely to attend ' be a chorister for a day events', again however admirable these are, and put the professionals to shame.

As regards cathedrals having parishes of their own in their locality.

As far as I am concerned the whole question of getting young people into church, which is so vitally important, needs radical re-thinking. It may be that a cathedral's resources can be used to help local parish churches in this work ( another sort of outreach ) and this could be immensely beneficial to the cathedral as well.

There could also be real advantages for struggling inner city parish churches if this happened. Some parish churches would probably cease to operate as such and be taken over by the new cathedral parish completely. A cathedral parish could even be quite extensive with church satellites dotted around.

Obviously there would be a lot of things to consider but this is not a new idea of mine it has been discussed in some cathedral circles for sometime.

Something has got to be done. Look at most cathedral and parish church congregations - they are all golden oldies like you, me and ardcarp!!

VCC.

[ardcarp]

VCC, I am afraid that even I, golden oldie or otherwise, do not help to swell the ranks of the faithful. One may spot an ageing agnostic within the hallowed portals from time to time, either listening to or involved in some music....maybe simply admiring the architecture. But pillar of the church? Sadly I have to be counted out.