CE Chapel of Royal Holloway 23.ii.XL

[DracoM]

CE Chapel of Royal Holloway, University of London 23.ii.Xl

Order of Service:

Introit: Gaudens gaudebo in Domino (Philips)
Responses: Byrd
Psalm: 119: 81-104 (Tallis, Byrd, Lawes)
Office Hymn: The God of love my shepherd is (Tallis's Ordinal)
First Lesson: Isaiah 58: 6-14
Canticles: The Great Service (Byrd)
Second Lesson: Matthew 25: 31-46
Anthem: Beati estis (Philips)
Final Hymn: All people that on earth do dwell (Old Hundredth)

Voluntary: Dolorosa Pavan and Galliard (Philips)

The English Cornett and Sackbut Ensemble
Senior Organ Scholar: William Baldry

Director of Choral Music and College Organist: Rupert Gough

[Triforium]

Perfect opportunity to tie in with an earlier Byrd thread - great or not so great? More fun to sing than to listen to?

[ardcarp]

...and will it be accompanied by cornetts and sackbuts?

[Miles Coverdale]

If they sing it transposed into Eb, I'd be surprised. I remember a performance in C on R3 in (I think) 1987 or 88, scored for MTTBarB not SAATB, which was accompanied by cornetts and sackbuts. I forget who was singing, but it might have been the Gabrieli Consort. I wish it would get repeated, as I lost my tape long ago.

[DracoM]

Interesting, refreshing, and very skilful use of instruments, solo groupings agaisnt full choir. It was good to hear it in that small acoustic rather remininscent of Chapels Royal in different places too. Small scale, intimate even, showed some of the virtuosity of the writing for what Byrd must have anticipated as a pretty crack group of lads and men.

Bit over close-miked solo group - a tad like last week? Didn't really do the singers many favours.


Not sure the Phillips quite stood up to the same treatment?

Idiosyncratic odd psalm singing / accompaniment?




And, gggrrr!!!!, that woman doing that terribly, slow and terribly de-lib-er-ate bare-faced promo and travel guide for Royal Holloway! Sorry, but I had to turn off the prayers. Couldn't take it any more. BBC must stop them doing that, please, please, plese!

[ardcarp]

Draco. I agree about the promo...IMO quite out of place twixt responses and psalm. I enjoued the service otherwise, and am always delighted by how well sackbuts and cornets blend with voices. I didn't mind the psalm singing. It was very clear, although that first chant is rather boring. I thought for one horrible moment they were going to sing the whole psalm to it. My only grouse is the slight mannerism the choir has (it's quite widespread these days) of not singing through long notes, e.g. GLO.......ry be to the Father. Once you've noticed it, it becomes a bit irritating. But it was a good clear sound with no overblown singing, and I agree too that the scale was very Chapels Royal-ish.

I wonder if there will be any further comments about the 'greatness' of the canticles?

[DracoM]

Well, in that format, it certainly made me listen to something I thought I knew fairly well again with renewed ears, as it were, so that has to be a plus.

[Miles Coverdale]

I thought the cornetts and sackbuts added a rather nice ceremonial grandeur to the Byrd and the fact that their use was restricted to the full sections made an effective contrast with the organ-only accompaniment of the verse sections.

As for the 'greatness' of the piece, I am unswerving in my view that they are the finest canticles ever conceived, and I would rather sing or hear them than vast swathes of the so-called 'standard' repertoire. If, as has been known to happen, a clergyman (or indeed woman) adopts a slightly pained expression and remarks that they're 'a bit long', I sometimes reply that I've heard plenty of sermons that were more than twice as long and less than half as interesting.

I can't help but agree about the dreaded 'tourist information' slot near the beginning. Instead of being a broadcast of evensong, it becomes evensong turned into a broadcast. Ditto the rather crass habit of tacking a Te deum on the end if there's time to spare.

[decantor]

I have to agree that the 'tourist info' from Holloway was rather overdone - I expected to be told in conclusion what good value their proposed tuition fees represented. But I am surprised at the hostility on this board to 'tourist notes' of any sort. In most choral foundations, whenever the congregation is swollen by a group of guests (the FCM gatherings, perhaps, or the Prayer Book Society), the presiding priest offers a special welcome that often includes a few remarks about the venue. It seems to me to be an inclusive gesture, and I rarely resent it when it occurs during a broadcast CE.

I would agree that, contrary to my expectation, the brass added a discreet je ne sais quoi to the canticles. What bothered me was that, in the 'verse' sections, there was a vocal shrillness entirely absent in the full chorus - this was not a contrast that I welcomed. But even then my view that the Great Service evening canticles are a masterclass in polyphonic writing was not shaken: personally, I would have chosen a steadier tempo, especially for the Nunc. As for the rest, the choir did its duty and no more to the psalms (three pre-1700 chants!), but I welcome any outing for Master Philips' work.

[ardcarp]

But I am surprised at the hostility on this board to 'tourist notes' of any sort. In most choral foundations, whenever the congregation is swollen by a group of guests (the FCM gatherings, perhaps, or the Prayer Book Society), the presiding priest offers a special welcome that often includes a few remarks about the venue.

For me it's partly where these 'welcomes' or 'travelogues' are put in the service. Anything which interferes with the hallowed shape of CE is a bit like painting a thumbs up on the Mona Lisa. Interrupting anywhere between the introit (if any) and the end of the anthem just spoils the flow. But it's partly what they say and why. Welcoming a group from the Buddhist League of Naturist Ladies on a wet Thursday afternoon is a bit different from broadcasting...in an overblown and usually nervous voice....a bogus 'welcome' to an anonymous audience over the airwaves...an audience which, if it wanted to be welcomed, would probably be seeking a less formal worship-style. But the travelogue thing is either (a) a boast about the place ('this college attracts many students with 5 A-stars') or (b) a misplaced desire to educate ('in the year 705 St Ethelbot was martyred within these walls by having a.....'). The question has been asked before whether the 'informal bit' is BBC policy or just a thing that has caught on.

[Triforium]

I enjoyed this service very much. I too liked the cornetts and sackbuts in the Byrd and have to say that the sound levels seemed bang on for balance between the voices and the instruments. The psalm accompaniments were troubling - that style of never lifting the chords works well with plainsong psalm accompaniments, but sounds a bit relentless when used with full Anglican chant. The singing in the psalms was very together. The Philips pieces were lovely.

Now then, about the Byrd Great Service - I have to say that to my ears the piece never quite reaches the expansiveness it sets out to achieve. Perhaps some of that is inherent in the limitations of the musical vocabulary of the day when applied to such a large scale vocal piece. Not sure. There are numerous "Great" services from that era, Parsons, etc., and they are all extensive pieces. I hate to say it, as I adore Byrd's music, but for me, the Great starts out nicely and at a certain point in the midst of all that is going on, takes on a static quality.

[Miles Coverdale]

Now then, about the Byrd Great Service - I have to say that to my ears the piece never quite reaches the expansiveness it sets out to achieve. Perhaps some of that is inherent in the limitations of the musical vocabulary of the day when applied to such a large scale vocal piece. Not sure. There are numerous "Great" services from that era, Parsons, etc., and they are all extensive pieces. I hate to say it, as I adore Byrd's music, but for me, the Great starts out nicely and at a certain point in the midst of all that is going on, takes on a static quality.

I don't think I can let this pass unchallenged. There is no other piece from the sixteenth century which even comes close to the Byrd in terms of variety of scoring or inventiveness of writing, never mind sheer scale. The nearest in terms of length is probably Tomkins' Third, but that only sets Te deum and Jubilate from the morning canticles and is less than three-quarters the length. Parsons' First Service does set as many movement as the Byrd but, being thirty or more years earlier, is far less harmonically interesting.

Also, the only piece to be called 'Great' by contemporary scribes (as opposed to its being tacked on later or adopted by people trying to maximise CD sales) is the Byrd.

To get a complete view of the piece, I think one has to know the morning canticles as well as (in both senses) the evening ones. Otherwise, it's not unlike being familiar with only a movement or two from a symphony. Byrd's infinite subtlety in word-setting and phrasing is only fully appreciated if one is familiar with the whole thing. For example. the opening of the Venite, which is written as three bars of 4/2 time, should really be phrased as four bars of three. Finally, a wonderful sense of climax to the entire piece is reached in the Nunc when the bass part goes into augmentation. Static? Never.

[Magnificat]

ardcarp, your reference to bogus welcomes reminds me of story about the late, great Sir Alf Ramsey an east London boy who cultivated an upper class accent in order to get on in life but from time to time forgot himself and slipped back to his boyhood vernacular as when England were to play Scotland just after winning the World Cup.

Arriving in Glasgow a member of the Press greeted him with " Welcome to Scotland Sir Alf " to which he replied in his rather plummy voice " You must be effing joking"!

Like you I enjoyed the service, very pleasantly sung all round I thought by a lesser known but very competent college choir.

To add to the travelogue. It is a stunning Victorian building - I know it quite well as my nephew went there.

VCC

[Triforium]

No need to be a challenge MC, it’s just how they strike me. I wish I felt differently about them but I don’t. I’ve sung the Benedictus and the Te Deum numerous times, though admittedly with less frequency than the mag and nunc which come along several times a year. Haven’t done the Venite. Have sung the Parsons Great mag and numc several times in non-liturgical performances – they are quite nice. My understanding of the use of “Great” is that the word denotes a complete set of canticles, or most of them at least. And typically they seem to be extended show pieces.

I can’t really pin it down, could be the harmonic rhythm of the middle sections. I feel like something is missing, some contrast or something, especially when I put it next to his consort music and other choral works.

[Miles Coverdale]

My understanding of the use of “Great” is that the word denotes a complete set of canticles, or most of them at least. And typically they seem to be extended show pieces.

As far as I'm aware, there is no formal definition of the term 'Great Service'. The criterion that all the canticles are set will not, unfortunately, do, for by that yardstick Gibbons' Short Service would be termed a 'Great' service. As I said, the only one to be routinely called 'Great' in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was Byrd's, and that principally on account of its length. It is called 'Mr Byrd's new sute of service for means' in the York manuscripts (c. 1618), which suggests a fairly late date of composition. Pieces such as Parsons' First Service, Sheppard's Second Service and Tomkins' Third Service are only called 'Great' by later writers trying to 'big up' the piece in question or to make it look good on a CD cover (eg. the fairly recent recording of Parsons' 'First Great Service'.

I don't think one can really say that it lacks variety of harmonic rhythm, especially by comparison with a piece such as the Parsons, which is much more static harmonically. I will say that it has yet to receive what I would regard as the 'definitive' recording, but that's another story.