I think it unlikely Brahms would have thought of himself as uber-Romantic. He is very much a structualist in the classical sense. His organ chorale preludes are quite surprisingly Bachian. But of course his harmonic language was 'of its time'.
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An English version was included in Sunday Worship on Radio 4 yesterday (15th September). Did no one in the religious broadcasting department realize that this was the same work as the one to come on Wednesday?Originally posted by Magnificat View PostComment
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What exactly is "full compass" when it comes to organs?Originally posted by ahinton View Post
Hereford cathedral has 30 notes on the pedal (top note F) and 58 on the manuals (top note A). Most organists would consider that to be "full compass" - or, at least, bog standard compass.
Many historic organs only have 27 notes on the pedal and 49 on the manuals. Indeed, the term "full compass" in relation to the swell organ on a British organ would at one time have meant going all the way down to C two octaves below middle C rather than starting at G below middle C, and in relation to the pedals would have indicated more than a single octave of pedals. Admittedly, it would also have implied going down to 10 2/3 ft G on the other manuals.
The organs at St Sulpice (Paris), St Sernin (Toulouse) and St Ouen (Rouen) have manual compasses of only 56 notes and pedal compass of 30 notes. I've never heard of anybody turning their nose up at the opportunity to play these instruments on account of the shortness of the compass.
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You made this observation about the Hereford organ's compass here last year - to which I replied. I agree wholeheartedly with Vile Consort, and if you describe it as a "magnificent example of a great English Romantic organ", then surely you should expect it to have the compass of that country and era - which it does.Originally posted by ahinton View PostComment
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Then what, for example, of the Harrison & Harrison organs at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol and Westminster Abbey, the Willis III Grand Organ at Westminster Cathedral or St. Paul's Cathedral's Willis? - surely all merit a similar description but they each have 61-note manuals and 32-note pedals.Originally posted by Wolsey View Post
To Vile Consort's observation that "the organs at St Sulpice (Paris), St Sernin (Toulouse) and St Ouen (Rouen) have manual compasses of only 56 notes and pedal compass of 30 notes" and his remark that he's "never heard of anybody turning their nose up at the opportunity to play these instruments on account of the shortness of the compass", I have but two comments; firstly, that I have never suggesed that any organist would turn up his/her nose at opportunities to play these instruments and, secondly, that, as their design and location does rather readily rules them out as "English Romantic organs", reference to them here does look a little like un hareng rouge! To his question as to what constitutes "full compass" manuals and pedals, the answer is obviously unclear, although 61-note manuals and 32-note pedals is rather obviously "fuller" compass than the instrument at Hereford or the French examples cited and, to the extent that it is probably also "fullest compass" (in the sense that I'm unaware of the existence of pipe organs with greater manual or pedal compasses), it might reasonably be deemed "full compass".Last edited by ahinton; 17-09-13, 09:13.Comment
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Wonderful! 21 postings and not a note yet sung! This is why I love this board!Comment
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To increase the compass of a large organ during a re-build is a hugely complex and eye-wateringly expensive exercise. I guess the consultants at Hereford wisely chose to spend the funds available on quality workmanship rather than hankering after a few extra notes. Anyway, having F as the top note of the pedal-board allows a wild stab during wedding mode Widor to pay off.
That's 22, Draco.Comment
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Bless you, ardcarp - I feel so much better knowing that even real organists admit to the "wild stab" for the top note in the Widor! Actually, going back a few decades, I was never called upon to play any organ whose pedal-board exceeded that F.Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
Draco, your Post#15 expresses my own opinion in principle, though I'm sure we would squabble over details. However, in my own case I must clarify that reservations over (say) Elgar and Mendelssohn apply only to their liturgical music. Contrariwise, I would say Bruckner switches into liturgical mode with complete conviction. But the knack for 'spirituality' (for want of a better word) came naturally to the ancient composers, and those of the last hundred years have recaptured it by looking a long way back for their inspiration.
23? But who's counting?Comment
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Surely given the current mania for film music on R3 the organist could have slipped in The Dambusters as the voluntary?
Now my eyebrows would have disappeared into my receding hairline at that!"The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard HaitinkComment
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Well, full compass - or "full compass", if some might prefer - is essential to performances of certain repertoire, not least Sorabji's three symphonies for organ solo which, as they add up to some 18 hours of music, is hardly an insignificant conribution to music for the "full (compass) organ"...Comment
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...but maybe if the choice is between spending an extra £750,000 on a rebuild or managing without Sorabi's (who he?) organ symphonies, the decision becomes more obvious.
All new pianos nowadays have the 'concert' compass (i.e. seveen octaves + three notes) which has been standard for concert grands for a century. The number of pieces which need these notes is vanishingly small, but pianos are churned out as a mass produced product and not individually built as are organs. Therefore it is easy to specify the 'concert compass' at design stage.Comment
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It is indeed a massive problem, I grant you that - and one which doesn't affect pianos to anything like the same extent financially. That said, any major refit of a pipe organ is a very expensive matter, whether or not the range is extended as part of that. I remember years ago that the mere cost of overcoming the problem of wind leaks that caused insufficient wind pressureadversely to affect full organ chords with five or more notes in each hand and two or more in the pedals was pretty steep.Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
The composer's name is Sorabji, by the way; you have only to look him up.
Not so; the Bösendorfer 290 has an extra 9 bass notes (down to C) and has done for many years; other models made by them had 4 extra bass notes (going down to F). The number of pieces that need those exta notes is indeed small but the number that require the full 88-note standard compass is not - or at least it has not been so since that compass has become the standard. Point taken again about the differences between the piano and the organ in terms of mass manufacture, though.Originally posted by ardcarp View PostComment
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Those people who wish to play these symphonies will have to play them on organs with 32/61 compass then. As you have already pointed out, there are quite a number of them in the UK. There are more 32/61 compass organs in the UK than there are opera houses, and hence it is no more difficult to find a venue for a Sorabji symphony than for a Richard Strauss opera.Originally posted by ahinton View PostComment
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That's probably about right, except that some performances have been given on instruments with smaller compasses but obviously with necessary compromises. The tonal qualities of large Romantic English organs of the kind of which I gave examples earlier are ideally suited to the performance of Sorabji's music for organ solo (just three symphonies). The first (completed in 1924) was recorded in St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol in the year of the composer's death (1988), the much larger second (completed in 1932) received its world première in Glasgow University Memorial Chapel in 2010 and the third (completed in 1953) has yet to be performed; typeset editions of them all are in preparation. They would sound great on the Hereford Cathedral instrument and the building's acoustic would be more sympathetic to some of their more densely textured music than, say, that of Gloucester Cathedral with all its reverberant side chapels. The organist Kevin Bowyer considers that the Bristol instrument and that at Westminster Cathedral would be at the top of his list for this repertoire.Originally posted by Vile Consort View PostComment
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