CE Hereford Cathedral Sept 18th 2013

[ardcarp]

I thought it a lovely service. The men were able to sing 'within themselves' to balance the choir, which we also heard from Ely last week. I agree with Draco that the treble line has much potential and in a few months' time will be oozing confidence. Wasn't their verse of the office hymn lovely? And the men's, come to that. And Hereford's organ made all the right noises...lovely fat flutes...and a swell-box to die for.

[Magnificat]

Possibly because Brahms wrote it in German, and the vowel colours of the original language are often an important part of the sound of the music. Rachmaninov Vespers sung in English is only the palest imitation of a performance in Russian, for example.

If cathedrals were to follow the BCP to the letter then nothing would ever be sung in a language other than English (certainly not Latin, far too Catholic). However, virtually every cathedral in the land cheerfully ignores this injunction on a weekly basis, and their musical life is all the better for it.

Anyway, next time you program a broadcast, you can do it in English, can't you?

MC

As far as services are concerned it is extremely important to be able to understand what is being said and sung which the BCP recognises.

Latin is a language unlike German, Russian ( or French for that matter ) that is, at least, firmly in the tradition of the Church in England from which the Church of England sprung even if most people in today's congregations are likely to have only a limited knowledge of it and personally I don't object to anthems or the parts of the Eucharist that are sung in Latin.

As far as their musical life generally is concerned cathedral choirs can sing in these non-traditional languages in concerts and worry about vowel colours if they must and even then I would never attend a Bach Passion sung in German as the important narrative is made much more difficult to follow and enjoy if you do not understand the language.

VCC

[Miles Coverdale]

MC

As far as services are concerned it is extremely important to be able to understand what is being said and sung which the BCP recognises.

Latin is a language unlike German, Russian ( or French for that matter ) that is, at least, firmly in the tradition of the Church in England from which the Church of England sprung even if most people in today's congregations are likely to have only a limited knowledge of it and personally I don't object to anthems or the parts of the Eucharist that are sung in Latin.

You do realise, don't you, that your second sentence directly contradicts your first?

[ahinton]

The thing is, Alistair, that Kevin Bowyer is probably the only person playing the Sorabji symphonies, so it's not really a big problem is it?

The Sorabji is not the only organ repertoire that calls for the F# and G in the pedals and A#, B and C in the manuals - but in any case I didn't say that it is a "big problem", did I?!

[ardcarp]

There is a single example in Bach's organ works of a pedal bottom B (not on any instrument, I gather). Scholars muse as to why it's there.

On the subject of the last two CEs, surely VCC these are just the sort of trad choirs many like to hear, even if the repertoire chosen was not wholly kosher ?

[jean]

If cathedrals were to follow the BCP to the letter then nothing would ever be sung in a language other than English (certainly not Latin, far too Catholic).

XXIV. Of Speaking in the Congregation in such a Tongue as the people understandeth.
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.

Latin was so omnipresent that the language itself could not have been dismissed as Catholic. I don't think it ever fell entirely out of use, because at least until the nineteenth century it would have been understanded of the people in college chapels, certainly.

But it isn't now.

.

[DracoM]

Rehearsing a piece the other day in choir alongside a new recruit 15 yr old who looked at me in some awe and said 'you know what this means?' To which I replied yes.
What were we singing?
'Gloria Patri et Filio etc'.

Ahem.

I assured him that the reason I knew what it meant was because when I were nobbut a lad that was the language we spoke in the playground. On his face, there was just a tiny fleeting moment of doubt..............

[mercia]

As I recall, I don't think the notes were black - an aunt had a model 225, and the extra notes had a black fabric-covered hinged flap that hid them when not required which, I imagine, is most of the time.
RJ

yes, I've played a concert grand with the extra notes under (in this instance) a black plastic hinged flap, and it did make me wonder why they needed to be covered. Fair enough one might not have used the extra notes, but then on a conventionally sized keyboard one rarely (?) uses the top and bottom-most notes but there isn't a need to cover them up - or is it a matter of judging distances ? - one makes a leap to a far-off bass note and judges the interval by its distance from the bottom note of the keyboard .......... if you see what I mean ....... one wouldn't want to leap too far

or is the flap just a convenient place to rest one's cup of tea ?

[Miles Coverdale]

Latin was so omnipresent that the language itself could not have been dismissed as Catholic. I don't think it ever fell entirely out of use, because at least until the nineteenth century it would have been understanded of the people in college chapels, certainly.

On the contrary, the history of the English Reformation is awash with references that link the Latin language with the Catholic Church or the 'Romish fox'. Latin may have been widely used in places of learning, such as universities, but the vast majority of the population did not understand it. The equation English = Protestant, Latin = Catholic was widely and frequently made. Some of the more strident reformers went so far as to describe English as an inherently more truthful language than Latin, which could be used sophistically to deceive.

Coverdale frequently preferred words of Anglo-Saxon derivation to ones which came from Latin, partly because he drew very heavily on German models, particularly Luther, and partly because he wished to distance himself from Catholic associations. So he would use holy instead of sacred, ghost instead of spirit, heavenly instead of celestial, heathen to gentiles and so on.

[W.Kearns]

Somewhat before Coverdale's time, the herdsman-poet Caedmon wrote a hymn about the Creation in the vernacular language of his time and place. Anyone who has ever learned Old English will know it well. When Bede enthusiastically recounted the story in his Ecclesiastical History, he wrote in Latin.

I'm not trying to draw any conclusion from this reflection, and if I'm wrong in the detail, no doubt someone will correct me.

[ahinton]

yes, I've played a concert grand with the extra notes under (in this instance) a black plastic hinged flap, and it did make me wonder why they needed to be covered. Fair enough one might not have used the extra notes, but then on a conventionally sized keyboard one rarely (?) uses the top and bottom-most notes but there isn't a need to cover them up - or is it a matter of judging distances ? - one makes a leap to a far-off bass note and judges the interval by its distance from the bottom note of the keyboard .......... if you see what I mean ....... one wouldn't want to leap too far

The need for that flap is far from obvious to me; the principal virtue of those extra bass notes is in the improvement in overall tone colour of the instrument and they are not often actually prescribed in scores, partly, perhaps, because the number of concert grands tha have them is comparatively small. Pianists who play those instruments would usually sit in the same position as they would before a more standard 88-note keyboard instrument, so I cannot imagine why any fear of disorientation might arise. Indeed, the flap can be a problem; I recall a pianist (whose own teaching studio at a conservatorie had a Steinway D and a Bösendorfer of roughtly equivalent size) giving a performance of the Bach/Busoni Chaconne on such an instrument (and he was obviously used to them) in which he was going to use some of those extra bass notes for a descending passage in octaves near its end and discovered to his horror as he approached that point that the flap was down, so he had to flick it away which made all too audible a sound!

I've had some work performed and recorded on a fine Bösendorfer 290 and been involved in recordings by John Ogdon, Marc-André Hamelin, Donna Amato, Charles Hopkins and Jonathan Powell using such an instrument and, to me, there's nothing quite to match it for tonal palette.

Anyway, to return to the topic, Hereford Cathedral does not have a Bösendorfer 290 (sadly!).

or is the flap just a convenient place to rest one's cup of tea ?

As I recall overhearing a piano technician at RCM saying many years ago "when all the floor space in the teaching studio is full of unwashed cups and saucers, please use the music stand on the piano"; who knows, he might have substituted "flap" for "music stand" had there been any extended range Bösendorfers there at the time...

[jean]

Latin may have been widely used in places of learning, such as universities, but the vast majority of the population did not understand it.

That was the point I was making about the possible use of Latin in services in such places.

The equation English = Protestant, Latin = Catholic was widely and frequently made.

I'd be interested to see the references - not because I don't believe they exist, just because I've never seen them.

One might have thought that such an animus against Latin would have hastened the arrival of other languages/subjects to be studied at schools and universities - but it didn't, did it?

[vinteuil]

yes, I've played a concert grand with the extra notes under (in this instance) a black plastic hinged flap, and it did make me wonder why they needed to be covered. Fair enough one might not have used the extra notes, but then on a conventionally sized keyboard one rarely (?) uses the top and bottom-most notes but there isn't a need to cover them up - or is it a matter of judging distances ? - one makes a leap to a far-off bass note and judges the interval by its distance from the bottom note of the keyboard .......... if you see what I mean ....... one wouldn't want to leap too far

or is the flap just a convenient place to rest one's cup of tea ?

... an alternative solution, and more elegant I think, is to have the "extra bottom notes" on such pianos in reversed colouring (viz black keys for the naturals, white for the accidentals). I think there was a piano at the Holywell Music Rooms in Oxford which had such - I cannot recall whether it was a Steinway or a Bösendorfer...

[ahinton]

... an alternative solution, and more elegant I think, is to have the "extra bottom notes" on such pianos in reversed colouring (viz black keys for the naturals, white for the accidentals). I think there was a piano at the Holywell Music Rooms in Oxford which had such - I cannot recall whether it was a Steinway or a Bösendorfer...

I'm sure that I've seen one like that somewhere but cannot now recall where or when although, once again, I remain to be convinced that a solution is necessary when there isn't a problem to solve in the first place...

[Roger Judd]

To bring us back to the service, I thought that the singing was absolutely excellent - actually I think lovely is a better word - and as with Ely last week, the year has clearly got off to a cracking start. Yes, the boys do sound young, but if they can perform like that in week 3, then think what they will be like towards Advent/Christmas. The breathless 'Precentor' is in fact one of the lay clerks, who regularly sings the responses and collects. What can one say about the voluntary? Well, I'm not a fan of orchestral transcriptions as a rule, but Peter Dyke's Dvorak was pretty extraordinary - bravo. Warmest congratulations to Geraint Bowen and his team.
RJ