CE The Temple Church 16.ii.Xl

[Op. XXXIX]

Once again, Hats off to the TC, for showing what singing can be like in a church choir of boys and men.

I loved this broadcast. Thanks for a very interesting post, L2C.

The Parry was incredible, and on the basis of the Introit (frustratingly short, wasn't it?), I would like to hear more of Thalben-Ball's choral music. Great closing voluntary.

[mercia]

Does anyone know what that unusual bit in the Rose responses was?

are you referring to the 'Glory be to the father and to the son .....' part of the early responses? yes it was sung in harmony by the whole choir rather than just by the precentor, which is how I remember it. Perhaps there are two versions. It was certainly harmonically in the Rose style, though sounded odd to me.

edit - oops, just read that this item has been explained by a previous poster, sorry

[bass2]

I often read the message boards and so often agree with the comments! I did want to post something this week as I was actually at the service at Temple Church this week and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am not wanting to start a thread which I am sure has been much debated in the past, but I was quite surprised when I heard the 'listen again'. I had to check that I was actually listening to the same service! The sound really did not reflect what went on in the building and I was sat only a few pews back. The luminous quality of the singing was lost and the organ sounded if it was in a different room. The men sounded muffled and the blend of the boys in the building was completely lost. The priests too had a very odd balance. Anyway, it will make me take with a pinch of salt some of what I hear in future broadcasts! There was also a lot of turning up and down the balance during things...

[DracoM]

bass2

You have touched on a raw topic that makes every poster on these threads shudder, particularly those who did not attend the service in question. It is one that is much, much commented on here, and that is the sometimes bizarre effect of BBC engineering, mic placement, and filtering. There is no point in even starting to count the number of postings that have been written round that caveat, and often many of us earnestly ask for those who were there to report what they actually heard on site. It worries me that choirs can be distorted and thus dismayed by what is broadcast.

What baffles many of us and to an extent bass2 has pointed up this mismatch is that a number of foundations now do their own webcasts, in which the idiosyncratic acoustic properties of the building have been carefully assessed and appropriate sound engineering done. Yet when the BBC comes along and relays from the same foundation, those who are used to hearing that particular foundation week in week out, either via webcast or in the flesh, are 'surprised' by what emerges from their radios. Similar comments were made recently about the KCC CE, and I recall a quite extraordinary almost risible broadcast of a BBC recording made in St Thomas Fifth Ave NYC a couple of Christmases ago. The same can be true of St John's, Cambridge - maybe we shall get that later in the year - and New College, Oxford now runs its own regular webcasts.

Is bass2 suggesting that the trebles were turned UP to compensate for the power of the men thus distorting their sound, or that the men were consciously suppressed in the BBC broadcast to showcase the trebles, or what?
Yes, the ear can become accustomed to a particular soundscape on site, and can take it as 'the real thing' such that any other is seen as a travesty, I fully accept that, but the number and frequency of the comments about BBC engineering does make one stop and question exactly what one is hearing. It seems to me that a huge amount depnds on whether the team on the faders actually knows anything about the music they are hearing, and / or whether they spend every broadcast watching the dials and shuttling the choir or organ or both all over the building so as to redner those listening sea-sick. For example, in the Temple broadcast, the psalms were reasonably close and distinct and the balance sounded almost ideal, and then suddenly moved many, many feet away as soon as any organ sound of any weight came in, and this happened the whole way through, choir, soloists, organ etc shuttling in and out as if the engineers were playing one-arm bandits with the faders / filters. Maybe the circular nature of the Temple Church contributed to this, but.......?

[listen2counterpoint]

Just to add my two penneth worth to the BBC Recording Debate. I have it on good authority from a former Choral Evensong Producer, that the reason the faders are employed so liberally is due to the transmitters and their own sensitivity. I believe that, were the folk in the box not to push the 'safety first' button when faced with a wall of sound such as from the TC yesterday, the filter in the transmitter would automatically cut in much more brutally! It does beg the question as to why the BBC can't produce choral music to anywhere near the same standard as an independent company which then produces a CD. It's not a question of editing, merely of mic placement and level setting. The balance in yesterday's broadcast was appalling at times, when the men sounded as if they were wrapped in a thick duvet for tutti phrases, and then unwrapped again for their individual phrases (re-listen to the Dyson Mag from that view-point). They say the filitering challenge comes most with trebles voices. Something to do with the high frequency......? It sounds like an excuse to me. Surely, in 2011, we can come up with a better compromise than just muffling and unmuffling the choir when the dynamics change..........

L2C

[bach736]

Couldn't be worse than ITV, whose Sunday morning service would often be covered by the Saturday football OB unit in the area.
There are 68 of these beautifully crafted introit sentences (with much divisi) which used to begin the R4 Daily Service - in the days when it was a proper service. They're still available in two sets, 'Laudate Dominum' from Novello. A great tradition in miniature writing - brilliantly continued today by Ian Tracey and Paul Trepte among many.
It's a brave DoM who exposes his top line to the Dyson Mag on radio. They might not have quite risen to the occasion but full marks for trying. I thought the psalms were excellent - an intelligent adaptation of Scott's pointing to the set St Paul's chant - expressively sung with understanding. I very much enjoyed the Bednall too - but then I still get grumpy old men complaining about 'all this modern music' when I've just played a bit of Langlais older than they are.
'A Temple of delight' as Keats would say.

[bass2]

Draco, Thank you for your reply. I suppose what I am trying to say is that a choir is definitely 'tuned' (for want of a better word) to a particular building: the perfect examples being the different sounds that KCC and St John's make. I just didnt understand why no attempt had been made to capture what the Temple choir sounds like in the building. The Temple is incredibly spacious and needs a good deal of 'wellie" (to use a word from an earlier comment) to make any impact in the building. This is, after all, what GTB did for many many years with his full-blooded boys. I agree with the comment above: mic placemnet seemed poor yesterday. It sounded like a choir singing in a garage and not the wonderful acoustic of the Temple which needs good supported, bright singing from the top line. (It was interesting to hear Gloucester last week. Ironically, this seemed a good representation - to me who does not know Gloucester Cathedral well - of how that choir must sound in that building. It had space and warmth and didnt sound like the boys had mics implanted into them.) To answer another question from my observations yesterday: there were few mics on display but those that were there were very close!!

[Countertenor]

Why can't the BBC sort this problem out? I have been involved in many broadcasts in different cathedrals and the contrast in engineering is quite staggering. Why can't the BBC have a plan of the best positions for microphones for each building and stick to it every year. This would surely help the engineers and save time.

[WmByrd]

Might you be the sort of guy that runs for the hills at the slightest mention of anything more than mf? Or perhaps a man who likes the term 'Evensong Voice' when describing the soloist in Stanford in G Nunc Dimittis........

[...]

Perhaps you shouldn't risk yourself with these more professional broadcasts of Choral Evensong Simon, and stick with schoolmasters, solicitors etc of cathedral choirs such as Carlisle, Derby and Portsmouth...........



L2C

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Like!

[DracoM]

"You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment." seems relevant here?

[chorister49]

To use Simon's word at the beginning of this thread, this definitely struck me as 'raucous'. Ponderous and a bit stodgy in places too - felt like the DoM was having to drag them along unwillingly. I love the Dyson in D setting but the Mag was sung as though it was Verdi, and a good number of the responses were too. I would have liked to hear more subtlety and colour, rather than belting through it all as loudly as possible. The Nunc was much nicer to listen to, sung with a lot more sensitivity.

I do think that the reaction on these, and the previous R3 boards, to men's voices is interesting. If the top line was sung with as much vibrato and lack of subtlety as the tenors and basses gave on this broadcast then we would be innundated with disparaging comments about warbly women. Why does the same not apply to the gents?

[listen2counterpoint]

Just a few quick thoughts:

Vibrato is a natural vibration of the voice, when it is free on the breath. If such a voice has this expressive element, it usually implies that the singer is capable of a lot more expression than someone who is restrictive by making a straight sound. This is obviously a simplistic argument, but has an important kernel of truth in it.

If you analyse George Dyson's Magnificat, you'll find a lot of harmonic colour and texture which seems quite Elgarian. If you then extend that idea, Elgar was himself heavily influenced by the German late Romantic repertoire including Wagner at the time. Wagner is most famous for his operas. Therefore, isn't it logical to approach singing Dyson in D with a certain romanticism and operaticism?

I have never heard a church choir give more rich colour in the sound (in particular the loud stuff) than the TC Choir. This was not really reflected in any way by the broadcast yesterday. As I said previously to DracoM - buy the Temple Disc The Majesty of thy Glory, and then you'll really hear what the choir sounds like.

L2C

[organgrinder]

On the question of microphone balance and broadcast quality, could I add a few points as one who records choirs occasionally and works in broadcasting (not BBC). The Beeb says it aims to capture the sound and atmosphere of the venue, hence perhaps a more distant sound than a commercial CD? But there is another factor, and it's nothing much to do with the location sound engineers.

FM broadcasts cannot handle the full dynamic range of live sound or even CD sound, so a degree of dynamic compression is needed. Some of this is done manually and carefully at the mixer, but the signal going to FM transmitters also has automatic compression (sometimes minimised for certain R3 content) and the transmitters also have final 'hard' limiters. All this can have a negative effect on choral music particularly. If you ever hear the opening of Zadok the Priest on Classic FM, where even more compression is used, you'll know what I mean. DAB does not seem to have auto compression and sounds much better in this respect.

Rather than the engineers twiddling all the time, it could be the audio 'processing' downstream of the sound mixer that people are noticing. Try 'Listen Live in HD' on the Radio 3 website, especially of you have a good sound card on your PC. It's quite a revelation.

[bass2]

Dear Chorister 49 (i am sorry that you never achieved a higher number in your choir! ;-)), I redirect you to my comments earlier. As an attendee yesterday at the service I think you will find that the tempi suited the building. I agree that the tempi on the radio sound slow and I am only sorry that this is more the issue with the engineering side than anything else. My heart sank as I heard the quartet and boy soloist on the listen again (who sounded as if he had overdubbed the organ as he past Abbey Road on his way to the church) who were incredibly effective live. Thanks to L2C for some very enlightening comments. Hats off to the TEmple - under that mic'ing most choirs would fair worse...

[bass2]

Apologies, chorister 49, I couldnt resist. Apologies for my spelling too - trying to work and keep up with this thread at the same time!