Choral Vespers from the Church of the London Oratory 10.4.2013

[DracoM]

Choral Vespers from the London Oratory


Order of Service:


Organ: Prélude du huitième ton (Nivers)
Invitatory: (Croce)
Psalms 109-112, 116 (Gregorian chant)
Hymn: Iste confessor (Gregorian chant and Frescobaldi)
Magnificat secundi toni (Quanti in mille anni) (Lassus)
O salutaris Hostia (Gregorian chant)
Tantum ergo (Duruflé)
Regina caeli à 7 (Lassus)
Organ: Offertoire sur O filii et filiae ( Lebègue)


Celebrant: Rev. Father George Bowen


Organist: Matthew Martin
Director of Music: Patrick Russill

[DracoM]

Reminder: today at 3.30 p.m.

[DracoM]

For those steeped in the Anglican tradition, Choral Vespers of the type we heard today, conducted almost entirely in Latin, and much of the singing being kinds of approximations to plainchant, would, I would hazard, have proved difficult.

We have heard London Oratory before in similar formats in other years, and I fear that not dissimilar comments about the soprano line were made then. I have to say I do find a mixed male/female unison line in chant rather awkward - just do not think the match works, or, at least, it did not sit comfortably today. The singers worked hard, some of the settings were decently done - Lassus and Durufle.

We have some very knowledgeable Catholic contributors to this Forum: I really would like clarification from one in the know: is this what High RC worship now sounds like, or can sound like..........?

[DracoM]

Bit taken aback. Seriously sorry you thought it patronising. It was meant anything but.

I was trying to move us away from an earlier posting which to my mind was intemperate and actually very untypical of this Forum and to wonder how a traditional Anglican might hear that broadcast.

Genuinely seeking information.

[Simon Biazeck]

much of the singing being kinds of approximations to plainchant

I really don't understand what you mean by "approximations to plainchant". All the chant (antiphons and psalm tones) were taken from traditional Catholic sources (Solesmes) and checked by our chant scholars against the earliest semiological sources. So what you are hearing is the cutting edge of Traditional Catholic liturgical chant interpretation.

There is nothing wrong with women singing in church, especially as beautifully and expressively as they did today. Boys' choirs up and down this counrty often sing as expressively, and their place in the liturgy is not called into question.

The London Oratory Senior Choir of professional men & women has served the liturgy in much the same way for many years, a tradition of which the Oratory Fathers and congregation are justly proud and thankful. Yes, this is what Old Rite Vespers and Benediction sounds like at the London Oratory.

[DracoM]

Can you talk a little more about the place of Solesmes theory in terms of the debate about how plainchant should be sung?
I understood that there are 'other schools'?

[Simon Biazeck]

Can you talk a little more about the place of Solesmes theory in terms of the debate about how plainchant should be sung?
I understood that there are 'other schools'?

This is a HUGE subject, but if I may article you to Dom Eugène Cardine's GREGORIAN SEMIOLOGY (ISBN 2-8527 4-067-2) you will learn all you need to know about Gregorian Chant. If I may assume you are referring to rhythmic interpretation, then briefly, there are many episemas, letters and marks missing from the clivis, pes, torculus, virga in 19th c. Solesmes editions. We heard a number of these restored today in the beautiful antiphons for this feast. Of course, almost no one sings from the original semiology anymore, preferring the quadratic notation with various lines to indicate longer notes. One of the reasons Cardine wrote his book was because the wealth of chant published in the Vatican Edition "shows only part of what the most ancient neumatic signs express. Although its representation of the melodic design, shown by symbols which have existed for centuries, is nearly perfect, it almost completely neglects the fact that the ancient notations possessed different symbols for similar melodic designs. (...) By transcribing them all in identical fashion, the Vatican Edition omits their particular signification which can only be of an interpretive nature, since the melody remains the same".

There are very few melodic anomalies, and for the Mass, these may be rectified with reference to the Graduale Triplex, which shows two traditions of semiological notation alongside the quadratic. What remains is the necessity to understand the subtleties of rhythmic interpretation. Cardine stresses that this is not a mensural system of divisible proportions, rather a subtle succession of nuance and accent according to the various signs.

Naturally, he doesn't address questions of gender or symphony in performance. Chant is for all God's children!

I must to bed now. Thanks for asking, and I hope this is of some help/interest.

Simon Biazeck.

[jean]

I really would like clarification from one in the know: is this what High RC worship now sounds like, or can sound like..........?

I can't add much to what Simon B. has said, except to point out that 'High' isn't a word normally used to distinguish one way of doing Catholic liturgy from another, except when you're talking about a High Mass.

But what they do at the Oratory is certainly very traditional, and not often heard anywhere else these days. Before Vatican II, it was common to follow Vespers (essentially psalms topped and tailed with antiphions, a Magnificat, and a Marian text, and beginning with the Deus in adiutorium meum intende which even non-Catholics will know from the Monteverdi) with Benediction, where the Host is placed in a monstrance on the altar for adoration by the faithful, while the O salutaris hostia (sometimes, not yesterday) and Pange lingua/Tantum ergo are sung. This was the standard Sunday evening service in most Catholic churches until Vatican II permitted evening masses, and you don't hear any form of Vespers very often now.

I suppose Benediction is the bit Simon finds too full of dogma, since even he could hardly object to the Psalms - especially since Anglican Evensong is a conflation of monastic Vespers with the late office of Compline (psalms + Nunc Dimittis.)

I do not care for the organ harmonisation of the plainsong that they do at the Oratory, which certainly isn't medieval. But I've heard it argued that it is part of the natural evolution of the chant, which has taken a number of different forms through the centuries, until Solesmes stepped in and put a stop to most of that.

[vinteuil]

... I haven't been to the Oratory for ages. (My usual port of call when in need of such sustenance is the Jesuits in Farm Street - and I nearly always like the music there... ).

I much enjoyed this programme - it was exactly as I recalled services there - I could almost see the doffing of birettas...

[jean]

Birettas!

You don't see many of them these days, either (except in very high Anglican churches, of course).

http://anglicanpatrimony.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/more-on-birettas.html

[vinteuil]

Birettas!

You don't see many of them these days

... I rather like them :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biretta

... and they're a snip at £35...

https://www.brightonoratory.co.uk/apps/webstore/products/show/1561381

.

[vinteuil]

... a fan letter for the Oratory :

https://www.adoremus.org/Bromp998.html

[Yojimbo]

As someone who has performed on a number of evensong broadcasts over the years I mostly prefer to read rather than actively participate on this forum. (And I came to this thread well after whatever went on on the first page so can't speak to that). However, listening to this broadcast I'm moved to say that the Oratory and choir make a wonderful case for this style of liturgy. Vespers and Benediction can be one of the church's most beautiful services, in both the RC tradition and its Anglican counterpart, Evensong & Benediction. It is in a very contemplative vein, and that's something that comes across very nicely on this broadcast. Despite the amount of music (which can often ring alarm bells about 'concert-like' performance on this forum), it's clearly an act of devotion. I would even go as far as to say I think the Magnificat (and later, O salutaris) is enhanced by the sound of the thurible censing something, which is audible over the music on the broadcast. I congratulate the BBC in continuing to explore the marvellous diversity of styles of musical worship this country has to offer.

Also, the choir has a big building to fill and yet manages to balance a large sound with a good deal of control.

PS Fans of the biretta will probably appreciate this http://domusbirettarum.blogspot.co.uk/

[Nick Armstrong]

... I haven't been to the Oratory for ages. (My usual port of call when in need of such sustenance is the Jesuits in Farm Street - and I nearly always like the music there... ).

Might be worth toddling along to Farringdon / Chancery Lane one Sunday and stopping in here, in the haven of Ely Place: http://www.stetheldreda.com/

Good music too

http://www.stetheldreda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Music-List.pdf

The Bleeding Heart is a biretta's toss away, for nourritures terrestres ...and some genuine Dickensian atmos. cf. Bleeding Heart Yard in Little Dorrit.... http://www.bleedingheart.co.uk/ (but not on Sundays )

[jean]

Or if you're further West, try here:

http://www.holyredeemerchelsea.co.uk/Church_of_Our_Holy_Redeemer/Music_-_Church_of_Our_Most_Holy_Redeemer.html

Sundays only, of course, except during Holy Week.

If you have withdrawal symptoms on a weekday, don't forget there's a Sung Mass at 5.30 on weekdays at Westminster Cathedral, preceded by plainsong Vesper (without benediction) at 5.