The Canterbury Enthronement...the music?

[ardcarp]

No need to apologise, Simon. The more people making the point the better.

[MrGongGong]

(refers to cost)

It's the reason they gave. So if it wasn't that, what was it?


Edit: Sorry ardcarp - I replied before I'd read all the thread and saw your last just above.

I'm not sure that any music department is "cost effective"
as with UEA , Dartington etc that's often a convenient excuse rather than a real reason
sometimes people want to do something and look around for a reason , money is a useful one ........ thassorl

[bach736]

... when I was there there was no music department, only a sad and disappointed man called Reginald Moore.

Disappointed perhaps but not disappointing. I still play his Processional for a Chancellor from that time - invariably enjoyed by a congregation.

[Vox Humana]

Disappointed perhaps but not disappointing. I still play his Processional for a Chancellor from that time - invariably enjoyed by a congregation.

Is this published and available anywhere, please? Google draws a veil...

[ardcarp]

I'm not sure that any music department is "cost effective"

Quite right McG. Therefore closing a music (or any other academic) department on those grounds is totally illogical.

There are two interpretations of what 'cost effective' might mean.

1. Cost effective to the institution. There must be at least 100 students (each bearing his/her grubby £9000 per annum) per lecturer.

2. Cost effective to the state. There is an imperative to train dentists and chemical engineers.

What is education, especially university education, all about in a civilised society?

[MrGongGong]

What is education, especially university education, all about in a civilised society?

I don't think mr Gove will have the answer to that one

I think that in viewing EVERYTHING as a "business" then one looses
The performance i'm doing in Estonia next month isn't "cost effective", I wont make as much money as I would have made had I done some work in the UK and I will probably just about "break even" , but what on earth is the point of doing anything if economics is the ONLY motivation ?

[ardcarp]

I thought for a minute, upthread, we were on opposite sides of this debate McG. But you can't put a ciggy paper between us.

[teamsaint]

I think is a mistake to think that the kinds of policies that lead to things like the closure of UEA/Exeter Music depts are just a bit misguided, or a result of one or two badly motivated individuals.

There is a consistent drive to do certain things with education. Monetise everything, place huge emphasis on strict pathways, exams at every turn, pressure ruthlessly applied to the educators, and so on and so on.
Its not just bad luck. Its deliberate.
If you can't get people into debt , and then into jobs to start repaying that debt, then it comes way down the list. Thinking has to happen within strict guidelines.And forget thinking once you leave uni.
Music is a potential source of opposition to the madness of the C21, so has to be reduced to X factor predigested soma, if possible, or else as a niche curiosity for the top few %.
There, that smoothie got me into rant mode very nicely.

Nice for Gongers to be off to Estonia. Should be warmer, at least !

[jean]

Disappointed perhaps but not disappointing...

I went to University as a classicist rather than a musician (the Classics department at Exeter survives, amazingly - but then, it doesn't have the extra expenses of either Music or Chemistry) but realised rather too late that if I wanted to do anything musical as a non-specialist, it was probably quite important to choose a University with a flourishing music department.

Choir rehearsals were a depressing business, with RM turning up late or not at all, berating us for inadequacies he'd done nothing to help us overcome, and then cancelling concerts at the last minute because we weren't good enough. And yet he could have done so much with us.

I'm not sure what his role at the University was supposed to be - this was 1961 and he'd stopped being Cathedral organist in 1958 (retired?) I don't think a proper degree-awarding department was established until 1968.

But this is all by the way. I wish I had better memories of that time.

[ardcarp]

That's so sad, Jean. There were and are some flourishing music departments which tick all the boxes; academic excellence, good performance and...above all IMO....inclusion of non-specialists in the practical music-making. Leaving aside Oxbridge, I think they were/are largely to be found in the Midlands and North. I'm totally out of the loop these days, but maybe someone can chip in with positive experiences of the sort of places I'm thinking of.

[MrGongGong]

Huddersfield, York, Durham, Birmingham, Aberdeen, Sheffield,Leeds, Edinburgh for starters ......

[teamsaint]

That's so sad, Jean. There were and are some flourishing music departments which tick all the boxes; academic excellence, good performance and...above all IMO....inclusion of non-specialists in the practical music-making. Leaving aside Oxbridge, I think they were/are largely to be found in the Midlands and North. I'm totally out of the loop these days, but maybe someone can chip in with positive experiences of the sort of places I'm thinking of.

Southampton ticks the boxes very well. They could easily run a second decent quality symphony orchestra , for instance.
Anecdotally, I hear that the first year of £9k a year fee payers are much more reluctant to devote time to extra curricular music. Hope this isn't the reality.

[ardcarp]

Whatever the government says about 'no upfront fees' and 'you don't start repaying the loan until you are earning £x' the reality is, I fear, that potential undergraduates will be drawn to so-called vocational subjects, where the perception is that there will be a job waiting for them. The result of this will be a bigger divide in the Arts between the social classes. Those with rich Mummies and Daddies will be able to follow their passions. The rest won't.

Having talked to someone 'in the know' today, I understand that in a certain large sixth-form college there is a definite swing towards the 'vocational' A-levels and at a certain very fine university music department there has been a slight lowering of grade boundaries (I hope that's the right expression) in order to keep up the numbers in the first year of the Music Honours course.

[teamsaint]

Whatever the government says about 'no upfront fees' and 'you don't start repaying the loan until you are earning £x' the reality is, I fear, that potential undergraduates will be drawn to so-called vocational subjects, where the perception is that there will be a job waiting for them. The result of this will be a bigger divide in the Arts between the social classes. Those with rich Mummies and Daddies will be able to follow their passions. The rest won't.

Having talked to someone 'in the know' today, I understand that in a certain large sixth-form college there is a definite swing towards the 'vocational' A-levels and at a certain very fine university music department there has been a slight lowering of grade boundaries (I hope that's the right expression) in order to keep up the numbers in the first year of the Music Honours course.

There may well be a lowering of grades requirements. Music tends to give relatively low offers compared to , say, English and History. However, I know for a fact that for the last year of the lower fees, Kings upped its requirement to AAA, for the first time. It is still at AAA , but I see that they haven't filled their places, and it' s available on "Extra", which usually tells a story.

All of which is a bit marginal, (and in my defence I only know what I do because sprog was applying for 2012 !)

Nothing is for ever. Perhaps if music is squeezed at university, it will flourish elsewhere. Not hopeful yet, but who knows.....

[jean]

That's so sad, Jean. There were and are some flourishing music departments which tick all the boxes; academic excellence, good performance and...above all IMO....inclusion of non-specialists in the practical music-making. Leaving aside Oxbridge, I think they were/are largely to be found in the Midlands and North...

I was at the time trying to get as far away from the North as I could; but back in 1961 it was actually quite difficult to find out much to help you choose a university.

Fortunately after that I went to London for a PGCE and fell in with another student choir under John Poole, and never looked back.

(Survivors of this choir are singing a celebratory Evensong in their old home of St George's Bloomsbury under their old conductor on Sunday May 19th. All are welcome.)