CE Choir of Clare College, Cambridge Wed, 30th Jan 2013

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Quilisma
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 181

    #31
    I'm sorry my post has offended people, particularly Decantor, whose posts I have always enjoyed and respected. I wouldn't describe it as a diatribe, and I am sorry if it came across as such. I do regard criticisms over style and "appropriateness" of performance as perfectly legitimate, and I respect them. Indeed, I am a big supporter of free speech. I even understand the criticism that Clare has perhaps had too much airtime of late, although as I said the repeated 2008 broadcast in the CE slot over Christmas would have been a BBC decision only and they knew full well that Clare would be on again in February. And I'm sorry if I incorrectly identified objection to Clare being on too frequently as being something to do with the fact that the top lines are female. I daresay this might have contributed to the disappointment in some people, if not others. If I was inaccurate on this occasion I apologise unreservedly, but the allegations of a hidden agenda to broadcast women instead of "appropriate" boys have been made before by certain contributors when there have been Clare broadcasts, so I was perhaps overly quick to perceive them this time too.

    Again, I'm sorry for being defensive and for writing a diatribe. I too am a strong supporter of the men-and-boys tradition as well as the mixed-sex tradition: the two are not mutually exclusive, nor should they be obliged to stick to music expressly written for their own type of outfit. I also accept the idea that some types of performance are more "appropriate" than others, but this does not mean slavishly imitating the sound of a voice-type or instrument which is not your own; rather, being sympathetic to it in your approach (which needs to be flexible).

    Here is an anecdote which, I promise, I'm not making it up. At a gathering in Clare MCR about seven years ago a friend saw fit to introduce me to a guest whom he had discovered was a lover of liturgical music. (The friend then walked off.) Having opined, rather contentiously, that liturgical music should be sung entirely without expression (because expression was "inappropriate in an act of worship"), the man asked me whether Clare had a choir. I replied that it did. He asked if we were a concert choir or a liturgical choir. I replied that we were both, outlining some of our recent projects but saying that our principal role was in singing for chapel services. He then said "well why haven't I heard of your choir, then?" I said there was no reason why he should necessarily have heard of us, but that he would always be welcome to come and hear us sing if he wanted. He then said, "obviously, you're a proper choir then, with boys..." I replied that I was sorry to have to disappoint him on that front, but that we didn't consider this to be a problem as lots of people seemed to appreciate what we did anyway. He then opined that "you shouldn't have said this college has a choir when it so obviously doesn't; what you have described can never be called a choir, but must be considered a travesty and an abomination and an insult to the choral tradition which I am proud to serve". He then walked off in a huff before I could invite him to go upstairs to meet Tim Brown, who lived directly above and would have been only too glad to have a chat with the nice man. I never did find out who he was, but the friend who introduced him to me said he had talked about having worked in a choir school somewhere in some capacity or other.

    Of course, in my cosseted world I had never encountered anything like this before, and it had never occurred to me that anyone would make the connection, which I am inclined to find rather absurd. But no doubt he was entirely sincere, and I have learned that this position must be respected: we can't just assume it doesn't exist. Furthermore, subsequently I have met a number of people who have come out with some very harsh, snide, barbed or otherwise uncomplimentary things when they have learned that I am from Clare, insinuating that we are a bunch of heretical iconoclasts and brash trendies who like to bulldozer our way through life destroying tradition and offending people, simply because we were one of the first formerly male Oxbridge colleges to accept women, the first to have a DoM-run choir with a female top-line and the first to have a female dean, which in some people's eyes spells "agenda" (although actually we're rather nice down-to-earth people and we're not out to make a point). Someone once even cited Archbishop Hugh Latimer in evidence, as if he is someone to be ashamed of! (The last person, however, did claim that Cambridge as a whole was "culturally anathema" and "a propagandist for folly and heresy at every level throughout history", so I take what he says with a bucket-load of salt and, incidentally, by no means representative of Oxonian opinion as a whole...) But the worst reaction is when people say they're "surprised" (by which they mean "disappointed"). So yes, I'm oversensitive and can be inappropriately defensive, but there's a reason for it. I spent a few very enjoyable and very fulfilling years in that choir; I didn't spend those years as an enemy of the choral tradition, and although very few people want to suggest that it's a charge that, once made, sticks around to haunt you. The choral tradition in all its forms is something very close to my heart. I'd have hoped that that would go without saying.

    French Frank can rest assured: I'm not staying away on principle as such, but I'm wary of becoming a regular correspondent again because I seem unable to do things by halves! I ought to stick my oar in when there is a thread about language, though, you're right. So perhaps I shall, once in a while.

    Again, I'm sorry for having offended people. Entirely counterproductive.

    About the broadcast, though: I agree that the Poulenc was a highlight.

    Comment

    • Quilisma
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 181

      #32
      Sorry, I didn't mean to single out Decantor for an apology or to imply that I enjoy or respect his posts any more than anyone else's; indeed, you are all wonderful on here! I just thought he had taken exception to my earlier post. Sorry, also, for the probably unnecessary clarification!

      Comment

      • Quilisma
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 181

        #33
        And again, I'm sorry for the overuse of "again, I'm sorry for..."

        Comment

        • gainasbass

          #34
          [QUOTE=jean;258880]surely posters here are not unaware that many adults singing in cathedral and college choirs are not religious believers at all.

          With regard to jean's post #29 I am reminded of the instance when I applied for a lay clerkship 50+ years ago, the advertisement for which had stated that "applicants must be communicant members of the Church of England". Would this statement now be regarded as non pc?

          Comment

          • W.Kearns
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 141

            #35
            Dear Quilisma,

            There's no need to apologise, Quilisma - you're a joy to read and what you say makes good sense.

            Thanks, Jean, also. I can't answer your question, but relish your plain speaking and enthusiasm.

            Comment

            • yorks_bass

              #36
              Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
              I too am a strong supporter of the men-and-boys tradition as well as the mixed-sex tradition: the two are not mutually exclusive
              Although not the original topic of this thread, I would take this point further. Supporters of the male-choir tradition (and I will not exclude myself from this bracket) must be realistic and accept that, with the modern culture of non-discrimination, funding for boy choristers won't continue to exist without some attempt to create an equal opportunity for girls. There is no way out of it. People such as Quilisma's acquaintance (and he is not alone) need to realise that they do their cause inestimable harm with their stony resolution. Now I'm not suggesting that members of this forum need to take note (although I have my suspicions, following some comments), but we're doing the whole tradition a disservice by not embracing what is an extension to that tradition rather than an attempt at replacement. We can prattle on about appropriate sounds (echoes of some rather arrogantly-expressed LP sleeve-notes from the 70s, claiming that only now were appropriate styles being achieved - NCO?), but surely we can just accept it as different? Not better or worse, but an alternative presentation to get used to and welcome, as must have been the case with the huge change in the English choral sound that took place in the 20th century. We might not all like it, but then we can hardly claim that all boys' choirs sound the same. I didn't like the suggestion that any boy's choir would do a better job than female choral scholars just because it was boys vs women - it seemed blinkered to me, as well as wholly inaccurate. Nor the allegation of cosying-up between Clare and the BBC - easily refuted as it was. Perhaps the BBC like the sound that Clare choir makes, and producers feel they work well with Graham Ross. He is a nice chap after all. And Clare, along with other such choirs, are offering opportunities to former girl choristers to continue their singing (in concert as well as service - shock, horror!). It's a new 'tradition' that's here to stay. The two can exist side by side. Let's accept it and move on.
              Last edited by Guest; 07-02-13, 13:30.

              Comment

              • yorks_bass

                #37
                Originally posted by gainasbass View Post
                With regard to jean's post #29 I am reminded of the instance when I applied for a lay clerkship 50+ years ago, the advertisement for which had stated that "applicants must be communicant members of the Church of England". Would this statement now be regarded as non pc?
                I think that is probably the case. In my limited experience of applying for such jobs, the usual compromise is 'sympathy with the aims and traditions' or similar. I believe St George's, Windsor still has a communicant requirement, but that is a rarity. I know Westminster Cathedral has no requirement as such, other than as mentioned above. There is a note about a Catholic being appointed, all things being equal, but for my first few years my bass colleague was a Buddhist. It takes all sorts!

                Comment

                • Nick Armstrong
                  Host
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 26524

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                  And again, I'm sorry for the overuse of "again, I'm sorry for..."


                  Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                  He then opined that "you shouldn't have said this college has a choir when it so obviously doesn't; what you have described can never be called a choir, but must be considered a travesty and an abomination and an insult to the choral tradition which I am proud to serve".



                  Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                  this position must be respected: we can't just assume it doesn't exist.
                  I'm not sure at all that the latter and the former equate! I wouldn't see any need to respect such an intemperate and discourteous opinion, whilst certainly accepting that it exists...
                  "...the isle is full of noises,
                  Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                  Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                  Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                  Comment

                  • Quilisma
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 181

                    #39
                    Ha! I had already stopped being a regular member of the choir when I met this man (I wouldn't exactly call him an "acquaintance", though, as we spent all of about three minutes together, one evening in about 2005), but it was certainly an eye-opener...

                    Yorks_bass: very well said! By the way, if you are attached to the Minster, cordial greetings to Nick Haigh, who is a living example that one can easily be "both-and" rather than "either-or": prior to being organ scholar at Clare he was no less committed to two all-male choral foundations in succession. I don't know if he's hanging out on these boards at the moment, but anyway...

                    And you're right about Graham Ross. He's a really good guy, and a stunning musician, so it's no wonder the BBC like him.

                    I ought to make some comment on Mopsus's very pertinent remarks about the back rows in some of the mixed university choirs. Quite right, the supply of mature voices is perhaps a little less guaranteed there than in the front rows. It has always been a bit of a gamble fixing each year's choir. Certainly the days when a marvellous voice could allow one the benefit of the doubt for admission are long gone: no dispensations or easier offers, and if you don't get your offer you don't get your place. I believe that King's and John's still interview their choral candidates at the time of choral trials (end of September) rather than at the usual time (December), and as far as I know this is still the case for prospective organ scholars. I may be completely wrong, but I'm sure I've heard it said at some time or other that in King's and John's the subject quotas exclude prospective choir members, so for instance if you were awarded a choral scholarship but had applied for a massively oversubscribed subject you would be no less likely to be given an academic offer. But the other colleges certainly don't do this: let's say if you're a prospective choral scholar with an outstanding voice but have applied for a subject where there are fifty candidates and two places, if you're not one of the two strongest candidates academically you won't get an offer, or you might get pooled to another college, in which case you might end up singing in the choir anyway as a volunteer! (The system that, as I understand it, operates or used to operate in King's and John's is that in practice they would take the two outstanding candidates but also create an extra, third place if you were decent academically and make an offer so that you could come and be in the choir. But, as I said, this isn't the case in the other colleges.)

                    The choral trials system used to work as follows. Uniquely for applicants to the university (apart from organ scholars), choral applicants would state an order of preference of colleges rather than applying immediately to one specific college. During the September trials one would stay in one's first choice college and one's main audition would be held by the DoM (or equivalent) of that college, in the Music Faculty, but open to representatives from all other colleges, especially those which one had specified in one's order of preference. One could then be called for audition by any other college who felt inclined to take a look at one as a candidate, as it were. A few days later, after horse-trading and deliberation, one would be contacted either by one's first-choice college or, failing that, by another college, to the effect that one was being offered a choral scholarship (or not). If the choral offer was from a college other than one's first choice, and if one wished to pursue it, one would then transfer one's application to that college and be interviewed as an academic candidate there (not at one's original first choice) in December. But of course the problem with this was that a lot of people got choral offers and then failed to get academic offers, and telling them they had a choral offer falsely raised their hopes that they would get an academic offer. DoMs would to some extent have to second-guess how many of their chosen choral scholars would be awarded offers, let alone achieve them, so it was not unknown for a "lean year" (where lots of hopeful would-be choral scholars never made it into the choir because they didn't get an academic place) to be followed by a "glut" (where overcompensation for this combined with a remarkably successful record for the academic applicants, meaning that one had to honour one's promise to more people than normally of a place in the choir). So clearly it was a better idea to combine these stages into one: not telling potentially successful choral scholars until it was known that they would be getting an academic offer, and adjusting one's number of choral offers accordingly. (Clearly, if you get called for academic interview by a college that wasn't your first choice, it's a pretty strong hint that they might potentially be interested in using your voice...) This meant that, as far as could be achieved, a decent number of keen singers got picked to be a choral scholar somewhere, at least, although not necessarily where they had originally intended.

                    But the university still thought that this was favouritistic towards singers, so as far as I understand it the entire procedure has been overhauled (or is soon to be overhauled). If I have got this right, one now applies to the college where one wants to end up, and if one gets an academic offer there one may then be awarded a choral scholarship by that college. Remaining places that can't be filled from within the college will, as before, be open to volunteers from other colleges. In practice, this means that a small number of colleges known for their excellent choirs attract the vast majority of the keen singers, but with only a limited number of choir places many of them end up having to look for volunteer positions in other colleges' choirs. So the less well-known choirs now have to do the hard sell to ensure that their colleges get enough properly decent singers applying. I can see both sides of this coin, but it makes sense that, while the most well-known of the mixed choirs tend to attract a lot of the keenest female choral applicants, a lot of the keenest male choral applicants would still rather go for King's or John's as their first shot. It's always a question of working with what you've got each year, but that's also the case for any other type of choir too.

                    While we're on the subject of underpowered back rows, though, it can't be denied that some choirmasters, for some unknown reason, seem to like their choirs to be distinctly top-heavy and rather object to full-toned men. Suffice to say, neither Tim nor Graham follow this approach. There can also be a similar problem in choirs with, let's say, six lay clerks and two complete sets of choristers sometimes singing together.

                    On the subject of religious observance, obviously a member of a liturgical choir needs not to be hostile to what is going on, and fully willing to participate fully, knowing that they are there in some sense as collective intercessors for the congregation (both present and absent). I've known many devout Roman Catholics doing this, as well as convinced atheists, and practising Jews and Buddhists, not to mention all sorts of Anglicans (and indeed agnostics). On the very rare occurrences that there have been eyebrows raised it has been by the more dogmatic hardcore fringe of the Christian Union, who tend to avoid liturgical services anyway on the grounds of that type of observance being only nominally Christian and in no obvious way concerned with converting the heathen (or something). (Safe to say, though, that "outsiders" often say they find the liturgical services far more spiritually uplifting and nourishing and far less exclusive and threatening, and are far more likely to keep coming back. After all, a college chapel is the college's chapel. Controversial?)

                    I might get back to you on the "concert choir" versus "liturgical choir" thing, and a closer analysis of the oft-repeated fallacious claim of cosy relationships. But I've said far too much already!

                    Comment

                    • Simon Biazeck

                      #40
                      Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                      Caius singing Alma Redemptoris (whose?)
                      Sarum chant with discantus, by the sounds of it, and very nice too! One of the species of sinfonia desribed by medieval theorists (3rd or 4th?) IMO Gonville & Caius are the best mixed college chapel in Cambridge (!!)

                      Comment

                      • Simon Biazeck

                        #41
                        Oh dear, just read how that looks - no offence intended to the folks at Clare! A very nice Suffolk Evensong!

                        Comment

                        • jean
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 7100

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                          I might get back to you on the "concert choir" versus "liturgical choir" thing...
                          Something that struck me:

                          Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                          ...Decantor's feeling about Clare in Aldeburgh, or Rodolfus anywhere exactly mirrors my own sentiments. Does not mean that either ensemble is a rubbish choir. Just that it felt a bit 'fixed', like hearing West Cath Ch singing concerts - which of course at one time they never did for many of the reasons contained in decantor's comments.
                          But they did make records, didn't they?

                          Comment

                          • yorks_bass

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Quilisma View Post
                            Yorks_bass: very well said! By the way, if you are attached to the Minster, cordial greetings to Nick Haigh, who is a living example that one can easily be "both-and" rather than "either-or": prior to being organ scholar at Clare he was no less committed to two all-male choral foundations in succession. I don't know if he's hanging out on these boards at the moment, but anyway...

                            And you're right about Graham Ross. He's a really good guy, and a stunning musician, so it's no wonder the BBC like him.

                            I ought to make some comment on Mopsus's very pertinent remarks about the back rows in some of the mixed university choirs.
                            Not attached to the Minster - you know me by another name on a social media site, and we have partaken in the same discussion on this topic. That said, I do know Mr Haigh from Christ Church days - he used to stand in front of me!

                            I should probably admit to having been one of Graham's housemates for a number of years: perhaps I might therefore be accused of bias; equally I have had the opportunity to witness his ability, musicianship, etc. so perhaps I'm at an advantage there. Who knows?

                            I think the collegiate back row system has changed several times since you and I resided in the Fens. King's (and John's, I think) abandoned the early interview system a while ago in the interests of being seen to be fair. I believe that there has been less leeway regarding grades as well, and you are right about the new system which has the potential to cause real problems for smaller college choirs. It's interesting that it was a fellow of a college that won't have any problems recruiting who is behind the switch: I gather his reason (given not privately enough!) was to prevent the "educationally subnormal" from getting in - it would certainly have counted me out! I suppose the jobs of all the DoMs has therefore become harder. I suppose it's a point scored for those who prefer the degree-factory to the balanced community, but my information runs out after this point. I haven't listened to any of them for too long and it's easy to look back with rose-tinted spectacles, or do I mean listen with ear-trumpets? I forget, these days...

                            Comment

                            • DracoM
                              Host
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 12965

                              #44
                              < I believe that there has been less leeway regarding grades as well >

                              A LOT less, actually. Can confirm that. And, of course, there are certain subjects that will debar you from holding a choral schol eg Medicine at KCC and St J's AFAIK.

                              Comment

                              • Wolsey
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 416

                                #45
                                Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                                A LOT less, actually. Can confirm that. And, of course, there are certain subjects that will debar you from holding a choral schol eg Medicine at KCC and St J's AFAIK.
                                The current College subject restrictions for Choral Awards are a third of the way down this page.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X