CE Choir of Clare College, Cambridge Wed, 30th Jan 2013

[yorks_bass]

Edit: away again after today, so no more rubbish from me for a while.

Shame.

[Miles Coverdale]

What is 'treble stuff'? All-male choirs don't have an exclusive right to sing this music. Enough of this sexual apartheid.

[Quilisma]

Aha. Here we go again. I wish I could say I didn't predict the course of this "discussion". But I did, even before the broadcast happened. (Although I notice that vcc/Magnificat hasn't said his bit yet. I look forward to that.)

Of course, I'm sorry to see that Simon is irked. It isn't at all long since the last Clare appearance, for sure, but that (the Christmas meditation service centred around Tavener "Ex Maria Virgine") was an archived repeat from December 2008. I believe the choice to put that out again this Christmas just past was made by BBC Radio 3 alone, on the basis of scheduling alone. Maybe they thought it fit the meditative Christmas brief and deserved another outing; I don't know. Presumably they knew that they had already booked Clare to do this week's live broadcast from Aldeburgh, and that there would be people who would smell a rat and talk about cosy relationships. If it were the case that there was an (which it isn't), it would be an issue with the BBC, and certainly not with anyone on the Clare end. I have noticed that the choir has made a number of guest appearances on In Tune with Sean Rafferty over the past few years, but this seems always to be connected with upcoming concert appearances, and I'm sure it's not something the choir actively courts. Currying favour didn't happen in Tim Brown's day and it continues not to happen with Graham Ross at the helm. So it seems distinctly churlish to raise eyebrows; if a particular choir gets invited to do a lot of things (by a lot of different people) it's perfectly acceptable for the choir to take the opportunities while they are available, and it doesn't mean they intend to exclude anyone else.

Sorry to sound defensive, but having once been branded an enemy of the choral tradition simply because I used to belong to a mixed choir (indeed, the person concerned refused to accept that it could be called a choir at all because it didn't have the required boy-treble top line) I'm fully aware of what some people think. I'd just gently remind people that in this instance it's not an either-or. Unlike Trinity, Clare never had a choral foundation. The precursor to the mixed choir was a bunch of guys making do, and their attempts to get some boys from the town had fizzled out long before as a lost cause. But in 1971 the college was about to start accepting female undergraduates (as was King's), and Peter Dennison came up with the bright idea of establishing a choir with a top-line also drawn from the student body. This wasn't intended as a progressive polemic statement, let alone as an attack or threat towards the all-male choral tradition; it was more a question of "if we have the resources to create a choir that can sing the music that others sing, why not give it a go?" And of course there are different conceptions of how a mixed choir should sing: whether it should aim to hide the real nature of its top line like a guilty secret and constantly apologise for not being what others assume it is "pretending to be", or whether it should do as every other configuration of musicians does and make the best of what it is. Clare Choir doesn't sound the same each year (even under the same directorship), and it certainly doesn't claim to be definitive in anything it does. So when people are offended because it's not "proper" I always think to myself what they imagine "proper" to be, and whether that conception has ever been static or generally agreed. It's not Clare's fault that Trinity, Caius and Jesus established mixed choirs, or that they have been established in ever more colleges, and of course in other universities around the country. But given that it's not an either-or, surely we should celebrate this? Nor is it Clare's fault that many cathedrals now have girl choristers as well as boy choristers. Again, this isn't an either-or, but I've had enough of arguing with the CTCC lobby, for whom my Clare link is enough to condemn me as a philistine vandal from the outset.

So, come on, people. This choir has been around for over forty-one years now and it's part of the landscape and it doesn't need to apologise. The criticism that women sometimes sing "inappropriately" may at times be fair enough (and of course boy trebles sometimes sing "inappropriately" as well, as do adult men), but as I have said many times before this is sometimes to do with a mismatch between the acoustic requirements of a particular space and the techniques employed to record the choir. As a choir which fairly regularly sings oratorios with big orchestras, certainly under Tim Brown there was emphasis on developing a particular sort of incisive quasi-instrumental tonal projection even when very quiet (shrill but plummy, if you like) whereby the sound would not be swallowed up even in the most unfavourable acoustic conditions. (Having grown up singing in unusual acoustics at WAbbey and King's, TCB knew what worked in different buildings, and that what sounds good from within the choir can sound rubbish in the main body of the building and vice versa.) It's far better to be able to turns this off when not necessary than suddenly to find you need it and don't know how (or don't even recognise that you need it). But Clare broadcasts have often captured this as an edgy, metallic and screechy noise, an impression which didn't accurately reflect our sound and led sometimes to accusations of unmusicality, which were then typically blamed on the fact that we had a female top line. My hunch is that Graham Ross has been toning down the edge, which will please some people: after all, there are occasions where you don't need it, just as there are other occasions when it is essential, surprisingly to many who have never used it.

But back to Simon's gripe. Don't blame Clare. I'm pretty sure that for any Radio 3 Choral Evensong broadcast these days the BBC choose the venue, the choir (if not in-house) and, to a large extent, the repertoire. It won't always be to everyone's liking, for any number of reasons, including the yawnsome perennial issue of what the front row might look like (disguised by the assertion that they must sound "appropriate", i.e. like boys, and that only boys sound like boys), which for the rest of us is far less important than whether or not they can sing and whether or not they are being committed custodians of the choral tradition who will in their small way attract more young people to consider getting involved. And believe it or not, it doesn't necessarily have to be an all-male choir for a young boy (let alone a young girl) to think "I'd like to be doing that"...

Meanwhile, congratulations to my friends at Clare for another broadcast which did exactly what it said on the tin, especially after a very busy week of other major high profile musical engagements, during termtime, with no concessions whatsoever when it comes to academic work. But nobody would expect credit or congratulation for that, because it's par for the course: that's just what is expected of choral scholars in UK universities. Keep up the good work, and don't mind people who still play the "oh dear, you have women" card. Now Quilisma will return to obscurity, enjoying enjoyable broadcasts (and maybe not enjoying broadcasts that aren't enjoyable) regardless of who the protagonists may be.

[french frank]

Now Quilisma will return to obscurity...

That's a shame - I often wonder where Quilisma is when we get one of our linguitic discussions going ...

[decantor]

Oh dear. What sort of choral community do we have in this forum? Quilisma - whose dissertations have so often delighted and informed me in the past - emerges from lurkdom to refute a single short post with a diatribe; and a new member joins us choosing a pseudonym that instantly declares an inexcusable ad hominem campaign, and makes matter-of-fact demands for evidence on subjective matters. Simon can and will look after himself, and I agree with barely half his views, but the response to his posts leaves me feeling rather as Shosta must have felt for most of his career. I am left wondering if I dare express an opinion for fear the thought-police will soon be rapping on my door too. Is that what we want here - conformity to some post-modern PC viewpoint, with every opinion supported by hard evidence irrespective of visceral response? Isn't music very personal, and music in worship more personal still?

My own records show that, excluding archives, Clare, Caius, Trinity, Rodolfus, and Holloway have had roughly equal exposure on CE in the last seven years: Jesus has not yet joined the club in its own right. It is so easy to disprove conspiracy theories that withering sarcasm is utterly redundant. Just a modicum of research (which I've neglected) would surely prove that, in the same period, boys have sung the top line in CE more often than girls or women. The ancient tradition is not under immediate threat, but in any case, if CE is to be broadcast weekly, the 'traditional' choir is not available outside term-time. Variety is of the essence, and we must be grateful for the Beeb's continuing indulgence.

I thought Clare sang brilliantly in Aldeburgh - any reservations I had are not worth the typing-time. But they sang as a concert choir: in some strange way, they were a bolt-on that added to the service without ever integrating with it. And so it is with many mixed choirs in the liturgical context - don't ask me to explain as it's a mystery to me too. Resident cathedral choirs - dependent on children's voices, whether boys or girls - offer a spiritual suction that adult choirs do not. Others, of course, will feel differently about this, but they must supply their own 'evidence' if they deny its validity.

I am not a member of CTCC. Yet it is important to me that boys sing in liturgical choirs, partly because there are so few other avenues through which boys can sing at all, let alone learn the art properly, and partly because I invested 20 years of my own life in persuading them to do so. Is that so bad? I do not claim to be able to distinguish trained boys from trained girls, but the adult mixed choir is a different animal. Then again, I'm old: my sort will soon die off, and concert choirs will no doubt be able to deliver Byrd, Stanford, and Britten to the entire satisfaction of the congregations. But that day has not yet come. We oldies must be allowed our say - or has free speech been closed down by the anti-Simonites?

[Nick Armstrong]

Oh dear. What sort of choral community do we have in this forum?

Quite. The strife in the choir stalls is sometimes, sadly, a risible and off-putting aspect to this Forum. One can't help wondering if it mirrors attitudes and behaviour in the real-life choral milieu in this country, and suspecting that it does

[DracoM]

[a] there is plenty of 'strife' on all manner of threads, and The Choir is in that respect little different.
[b] so much of what is articulated here is subjective that it is inevitable that clashes of approach will have a personal edge in them. Sad, but true.
[c] FWIW I agree with almost everything decantor has said. Particularly grateful for his use of the term 'concert choir'; which admirably describes many of the ensembles we hear singing CE on R3. Sad to think that LITURGICAL events might become hi-jacked by these 'concert choirs' seeking a profile and / or adding to their CV. There is an indefinable something about having the resident choir singing in its home acoustic / service schedule which no amount of slotting Choir X into Place Y will ever replace. Decantor's feeling about Clare in Aldeburgh, or Rodolfus anywhere exactly mirrors my own sentiments. Does not mean that either ensemble is a rubbish choir. Just that it felt a bit 'fixed', like hearing West Cath Ch singing concerts - which of course at one time they never did for many of the reasons contained in decantor's comments.
[d] like decantor, I detest the ad hominem silliness that seems to give a mean-spirited and childish taste to some responses here. Unworthy of the genre and demeans those who write them.

[french frank]

The name of the most recent new poster has not been accepted, and is temporarily altered to SimonToo. The member has been informed - in case 'they' wish to make further posts.

This is the second time in a week that a newly registered member has chosen a username designed to attack another member to whom they then responded. The other one was deleted, since it contained nothing but an insulting comment. The comment was also removed.

[Nick Armstrong]

[a] there is plenty of 'strife' on all manner of threads, and The Choir is in that respect little different.

Perhaps it's cast into slightly starker relief by the fact that one might hope to find a spot of divine serenity amid the cloisters and the vaulting, that is not expected where knotty political issues are up for discussion.

Ubi caritas et amor
Ibi Deus est

après tout...

[mopsus]

Currying favour didn't happen in Tim Brown's day and it continues not to happen with Graham Ross at the helm.

I sang for Tim Brown (though not in Clare) and I'm sure he did not try to get broadcasts because of who he knew, but on the strength of the choir's standards. I think he'd have been the last person to push a choir into going on air if he thought it wasn't good enough.

As regards other mixed choirs in Cambridge, Jesus College mixed choir did a broadcast a few years ago, in the CE slot but of Wood's St. Mark Passion.

My problem with college and 'youth' choirs (and I don't think this Clare broadcast entirely avoided it) is not the presence of women, but that the men's voices aren't all fully mature, and lack weight. Somehow this seems less of a problem with the all-male college choirs - do they get the back rows with the mature-sounding voices, is it their training, or in some cases their acoustic?

[Gabriel Jackson]

[c] FWIW I agree with almost everything decantor has said. Particularly grateful for his use of the term 'concert choir'; which admirably describes many of the ensembles we hear singing CE on R3. Sad to think that LITURGICAL events might become hi-jacked by these 'concert choirs' seeking a profile and / or adding to their CV. There is an indefinable something about having the resident choir singing in its home acoustic / service schedule which no amount of slotting Choir X into Place Y will ever replace. Decantor's feeling about Clare in Aldeburgh, or Rodolfus anywhere exactly mirrors my own sentiments. Does not mean that either ensemble is a rubbish choir. Just that it felt a bit 'fixed', like hearing West Cath Ch singing concerts - which of course at one time they never did for many of the reasons contained in decantor's comments.

But Clare College Choir isn't a 'concert choir', it is a collegiate chapel choir. I don't see how a service sung by a liturgical choir in a building other than their own is hijacking anything! As to seeking a profile, broadcasts, recordings etc. are important because they aid recruitment, and bring the daily work of the choir to a wider listenership, which is a good thing, surely?!

[Miles Coverdale]

Resident cathedral choirs - dependent on children's voices, whether boys or girls - offer a spiritual suction that adult choirs do not. Others, of course, will feel differently about this, but they must supply their own 'evidence' if they deny its validity.

You have offered no 'evidence' in support of your opinion, merely stated it as fact. Why must others be held to a different standard?

Has free speech been closed down by the anti-Simonites?

I hope not. Simon, however, implied that 'cosy deals' exist between the BBC and a Cambridge college choir. This is something he has done before (it's always an Oxbridge choir, for some reason), yet he offers no evidence. If he cannot do so, then he should not make such assertions. That is not, I think, an unreasonable view to take.

[Wolsey]

Simon, however, implied that 'cosy deals' exist between the BBC and a Cambridge college choir. This is something he has done before (it's always an Oxbridge choir, for some reason), yet he offers no evidence. If he cannot do so, then he should not make such assertions. That is not, I think, an unreasonable view to take.

Absolutely.

[jean]

[c] FWIW I agree with almost everything decantor has said. Particularly grateful for his use of the term 'concert choir'; which admirably describes many of the ensembles we hear singing CE on R3. Sad to think that LITURGICAL events might become hi-jacked by these 'concert choirs' seeking a profile and / or adding to their CV. There is an indefinable something about having the resident choir singing in its home acoustic / service schedule which no amount of slotting Choir X into Place Y will ever replace...

I think the term 'concert choir' is both invidious and inaccurate, as is the judgment that this or that Choral Evensong was more 'concert' than service.

Many of us would have loved to sing in a cathedral or college choir in our youth, but we weren't allowed to. If ever we get the chance now, we seize it gratefully, and the liturgy is not necessarily the poorer for that. Besides, if some indefinable religious quality is what is sought, surely posters here are not unaware that many adults singing in cathedral and college choirs are not religious believers at all.

I sang in a broadcast Choral Evensong twice, with Musica Deo Sacra, a group brought together to sing services in Tewkesbury Abbey for a week every August. I don't think there even was a resident choir at Tewkesbury the time.

What sort of a choir were we?


.

[ardcarp]

May I humbly recommend this week's The Choir to anyone who has posted above:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tnw5

If one tries to ignore Suzi Digby's slight tendency to talk about her own career, she brings a depth of knowledge about the choral scene, and so do her two studio guests.

Topics covered under 'youth choirs' include Oxbridge Coleges and cathedral choirs including 'the boy/girl thing' and their voice production. There was some really lovely music played, the best of which, for me, was

Sidney Sussex singing Weelkes' If King Manasses
Caius singing Alma Redemptoris (whose?) in a big acoustic (and no wobblers)
Rodolfus singing Howells' The Siummer is Coming (lovely piece)
A Hungarian Y/C singing Kodaly's See the Gypsies (terrific ensemble work)

But the programme covers a lot of the issues (hateful word!) squabbled over on this thread. [And I slightly disagree with Draco...The Choir sub-forum is more contentious and at times downright offensive than any other!!]