Angelic Voices: The Choristers of Salisbury Cathedral on BBC 4

[Simon]

I just don't understand protests of this sort.

It was from GongGong. Which is rather like saying that it was from Saturn. Have you read some of his other posts? Understanding doesn't come into it. Just accept and move on.

[MrGongGong]

It was from GongGong. Which is rather like saying that it was from Saturn. Have you read some of his other posts? Understanding doesn't come into it. Just accept and move on.

What do you know ?
You haven't read what I wrote anyway so I can't see that you have anything to contribute , so will someone tell Prof Says to bugger off back under the bridge

[Simon]

you haven't persuaded me that in general that is is available to more than a small, and usually (though not exclusively) very well off group of people.It sounds like St Albans does great work, and I know there are other great outreach programmes.

i agree with what you suggest, that there are a lot of people who are capable of benefitting from this kind of training.you really don't need to be a musical genius, and to be fair ,cathedral directors of music frequently mention this.

The context bothers me, because the established church should not be acting as a stepping stone for the well heeled to reinforce their privileged position.

Oh for heaven's sake, use what common sense you have!

Of course it isn't available, in practice, to more than a small group of people. That's because a) only a small group of people are interested enough to get involved in it and b) with the exception of the few remaining boarding establishments there are a limited number of cathedrals in the country, which in turn limits the number of people geographically close enough to one for involvement to be a practical prospect. However, in theory, it most certainly is available, given the will and ability, to every child in the country - and there are many bursaries available to facilitate this. But children and parents can't be forced to get involved: it's their life and they have their own prioriries.

Asd to the established church reinforcing privilege, this is the same old tired socialist crap about equality that we hear so often. Nobody, apparently, according some people, should ever be allowed to achieve anything, in case they get ahead of someone else. It's "cutting off the heads of the tallest flowers" time again. What is the church supposed to do? Disband all choirs because not everybody can be in one? Should Man United fold because not everybody's good enough to get in the team?

But what really blows your "argument" stright out of the water is the contention that only the "well-heeled" send their kids to be choristers. That's so far wide of the mark as to be beyond ridiculous.

[teamsaint]

Oh for heaven's sake, use what common sense you have!

Of course it isn't available, in practice, to more than a small group of people. That's because a) only a small group of people are interested enough to get involved in it and b) with the exception of the few remaining boarding establishments there are a limited number of cathedrals in the country, which in turn limits the number of people geographically close enough to one for involvement to be a practical prospect. However, in theory, it most certainly is available, given the will and ability, to every child in the country - and there are many bursaries available to facilitate this. But children and parents can't be forced to get involved: it's their life and they have their own prioriries.

Asd to the established church reinforcing privilege, this is the same old tired socialist crap about equality that we hear so often. Nobody, apparently, according some people, should ever be allowed to achieve anything, in case they get ahead of someone else. It's "cutting off the heads of the tallest flowers" time again. What is the church supposed to do? Disband all choirs because not everybody can be in one? Should Man United fold because not everybody's good enough to get in the team?

But what really blows your "argument" stright out of the water is the contention that only the "well-heeled" send their kids to be choristers. That's so far wide of the mark as to be beyond ridiculous.

but Simon, if you read very carefully, you will see that I didn't say "only the well heeled". That was how you read it. what I said was different, and these choirs do , in fact act in the very way that I suggested . And I DO know what I am talking about.

As to it being "available"in theory to every child in the country.....well its a nice theory, but in practice, for places like Salisbury, Half boarding fees put most people off at a very early stage.

I do wish you would argue with what I say, not with what you think I say.
You might like to look at the totality of what people write too. For instance, I am all for the excellence that the Cathedral choirs produce...and have said so on this thread. There is great value in teaching people to do something so well, so young. I know, I did it.

But it's not all perfect, and the C of E has no excuse for complacency in what it does, and how it allows its funds to be used.

[decantor]

But it's not all perfect, and the C of E has no excuse for complacency in what it does, and how it allows its funds to be used.

The poor old CoE seems to be taking a lot of flak for producing subsidised excellence - though the subsidy varies widely, and is sometimes negligible. If 40 cathedrals employ 20 choristers of each gender, then 1600 children receive the training: that's a maximum. Nationwide, it barely scratches the surface. Instead of berating the CoE for what it does do, we should surely be looking at what others are not doing if the nation's children are to learn the joy of singing. For sure, not all can be cathedral choristers, even in a perfect world.

School and community choirs should be filling the gap, especially in encouraging boys (who do not naturally perceive themselves as singers). A few decent community choirs already exist - Broughton, Nottingham, Libera - though curiously they are still built around churches, so often dismissed as irrelevant. But these, like school choirs, do not arise from grass-roots demand but from inspirational leadership. So why are those whose social conscience winces at the perceived élitism of cathedral choirs not clamouring for egalitarian children's choirs up and down the land, and putting themselves forward as directors? Why is mud thrown at the success stories, rather than cash and encouragement at the yet-to-be? Where are the local Gareth Malones who can make things happen? The cathedral choirs have worked hard at spreading the gospel through outreach, and it's time to worry about the paucity of take-up. We really must stop agonising over the social aspects of our superb liturgical choirs, and focus on replicating their excellence in a secular context. So -- who's going to start an SATB choir with boys in their own neck of the woods?

[teamsaint]

The reason that those the Cathedrals might be berated, is that those at the top, with the power, influence , prestige , resources,ought to bear a great part of responsibility for improving things.
Nobody has said on this thread that the choirs themselves have not done good outreach work.

The C of E also has a message in what it does about things like sharing, and so it has a moral responsibility to deliver this in the real world, and in what it does.

And the problem of "Perceived elitism" is there. The elitism I worry about is not the quality of what they do, which is a good thing, but how they are used, by those in already privileged positions.

[MrGongGong]

Asd to the established church reinforcing privilege, this is the same old tired socialist crap about equality that we hear so often. .

I love this stuff .............

Particularly if one holds it up against what the church is supposed to stand for and the teachings of the person that these are professed to follow

keep it up Simon we've missed your nonsense

[Simon]

Leaving aside GongGong's irrelevancies, as he's missed the point again, poor thing....

but Simon, if you read very carefully, you will see that I didn't say "only the well heeled". That was how you read it. what I said was different, and these choirs do , in fact act in the very way that I suggested . And I DO know what I am talking about.

Well, (teamsaint 2 ??) you said "the established church should not be acting as a stepping stone for the well heeled to reinforce their privileged position." - but I agree you didn't use the word "only" so if I've read that wrongly please forgive!

You might like to look at the totality of what people write too. For instance, I am all for the excellence that the Cathedral choirs produce...and have said so on this thread. There is great value in teaching people to do something so well, so young. I know, I did it.

Fair point - I'm glad that you're so positive on this.

But it's not all perfect, and the C of E has no excuse for complacency in what it does, and how it allows its funds to be used.

Well, I don't think anyone would claim it's perfect. It would be great if more could get involved.

Biut I'm not sure quite what you mean, though I accept your genuineness, by the following, from your later message:

The reason that those the Cathedrals might be berated, is that those at the top, with the power, influence , prestige , resources,ought to bear a great part of responsibility for improving things. [...]

The elitism I worry about is not the quality of what they do, which is a good thing, but how they are used, by those in already privileged positions.

Can you suggest - seriously - a practical and realistic way in which you would want things to change so that your criticisms could be taken on board and met?

bws Simon

[MrGongGong]

Leaving aside GongGong's irrelevancies, as he's missed the point again, poor thing....

Nice to see your toys back in the pram Simon
So tell me , as i'm obviously too stupid to understand, which bit of the teaching of Jesus suggests that we shouldn't treat others as we should be treated ? i.e desiring a more equal society maybe ??

[DracoM]

Look, would you like to re-start this on a thread other than The Choir, where I am not sure it belongs?

[Nick Armstrong]

I thought it was a pleasure to hear such articulate children. There are quite enough people who can't string more than two words together at any age.

Wrenching this thread back on topic, we watched the programme at last, en famille, on Easter Sunday.

The children interviewed were indeed articulate and thoughtful - indeed, a couple of the girls came across as being 23 or even 33 rather than 13. In a good way. I think.

They sang well but somehow didn't seem inspired though. We thought that the problem was the director of music, who came across as dedicated but a bit of a plonker, playing up to the cameras rather and making 'embarrassing uncle who wants to show the youngsters he's a mate' jokes. I was very tired of him by the end and wondered if the choristers in fact saw right through him. He had a very odd way with phrasing, unmusical snatching off of notes at the end of phrases...

But a good watch as a portrait of a choral foundation - the historical aspects were particularly interesting, the individual explaining that (from Bangor University I think) utterly compelling. As a portrait of the school and choir today, it seemed slightly over-groomed, maybe that's what's disturbed old 2Gongs...

[secret squirrel]

I too watched the repeat (?) on Sunday and I must say how startling the differences to 'my day' were yet, crucially, how identical so much of it was!

The differences are, frankly, purely cosmetic (bunk beds, nice matrons and, of course girls!) but what came over most was the sense of belonging to a tradition and history that is eons old and still alive today; those choristers' bums would be sitting on the same stalls used for the past 400+ years and they knew it, and were rightly proud to be part of it!

All of those children (yes, children!) who spoke did so in such an adult way it that their comments could only sway any watching fence-sitters in one direction.

Yes, some adults played a bit to the camera, but don't forget - they have a duty too to recruit and they may have had to make their comments more 'outsider-friendly', but it was delightful to see such a fantastic tradition clearly in safe hands.

For what it's worth, and if you want to compare these choristers' lives now to one of the first 'chorister documentaries' from 35 years or so ago, look up Paul's Children on Youtube* and you will see again how the sense of belonging to something so very special (irrespective of venue) is a timeless wonder and something that all of these children from whatever age will take with them through their lives beyond the 'front row'.

Well done Salisbury.

SS
* I am sure other documentaries of this type from other establishments are similarly available!

[Magnificat]

I too watched the repeat (?) on Sunday and I must say how startling the differences to 'my day' were yet, crucially, how identical so much of it was!

if you want to compare these choristers' lives now to one of the first 'chorister documentaries' from 35 years or so ago, look up Paul's Children on Youtube* and you will see again how the sense of belonging to something so very special (irrespective of venue) is a timeless wonder and something that all of these children from whatever age will take with them through their lives beyond the 'front row'.
SS

SS

'Paul's Children' made such an impression on me that it got me going back to church after I had drifted away during my teenage years.

I had always loved church music and still listened to KIng's at Christmas but that was my only contact with the church.

After seeing the dedication that the St Paul's choristers put into it and the inspirational BR and working in London as I did at the time I started going to Evensong at St Paul's and WA and discovered CE on Radio 3 and have never looked back.

When Barry left St Paul's I was as devastated as you and the other choristers at the time but when a few years later he went to St Albans and I was working from home I couldn't believe my luck as I had started to attend the Abbey services and indeed have continued to worship there regularly ever since.

There was another programme about St Paul's choir and school a few years ago when John Scott was in charge but I found it a bit depressing to be honest the atmosphere came across as not being very happy unlike Salisbury,several people I know remarked about it.

I felt the same about the recent documentary featuring York when I thought Phiilip Moore's heart didn't seem to be in the making of it unlike David Halls in this one.

The last one I saw from Canterbury was very much like this one and Paul's Children you could feel that the choir really enjoyed what it was doing.

VCC

[grandchant]

Angelic Voices: The Choristers of Salisbury Cathedral on BBC 4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01f6tb8/Angelic_Voices_The_Choristers_of_Salisbury_Cathedral/

[mercia]

there was a thread about this programme at the time of its first showing