Angelic Voices: The Choristers of Salisbury Cathedral on BBC 4

[DracoM]

What do you want to do, compare it to gamelan, or Mali and Senegalese village singing, or Swiss yodelling, or Delta blues or what?

[ardcarp]

ethnomusicological methodology

Coo. I wish I could talk dirty like that!

[terratogen]

While I agree in part, MrGongGong, perhaps it's just as true that the gender of performers—and/or consumers' responses to the gender of said performers—goes a long way toward putting the 'ethno' into 'ethnomusicology' in both the local/national and global contexts.

[teamsaint]

Similar to Mary Chambers worries,one of my main concerns is that cathedral choirs are in reality, for many people, just a short cut to a good scholarship to a good public school.
Also, as far as i am aware, in general choirs offer 50% discount on the prep school fees, which if is a boarding only institution, as Salisbury I think is, make it out of the reach of very many people.

A Cathedral choir clearly often offers an extraordinary introduction to a musical world. However, its one with limited horizons, (perhaps with the commitment to excellence this is pretty inevitable).

One thing I do know.........the really very intense commitment, and very specific focus of cathedral music pretty much put me off any idea of a career in music , despite the fact that music has been absolutely central to my life,from then till now.
I might watch the programme now ! see how the old place has changed. In my day there, girls were just other boy's sisters !!!

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=teamsaint;146141]Similar to Mary Chambers worries,one of my main concerns is that cathedral choirs are in reality, for many people, just a short cut to a good scholarship to a good public school.
/QUOTE]

This may well be so where the cathedral has an associated prep school but it certainly is not the case where there is no choir school.

If you consider for example St Albans. Boys are drawn from as many as a dozen or more schools and are in the choir on a purely voluntary basis because they want to be in it and their parents value the musical education they receive free of charge purely for its own sake.

VCC

[pole_2_pole]

What do you want to do, compare it to gamelan, or Mali and Senegalese village singing, or Swiss yodelling, or Delta blues or what?

Flip it round... How would a Senegalese singer view 'English Choral Music'? As a niche, as just a category of music. Why shouldn't it be treated in a ethnomusicology fashion?

In fact, I am aware of a friend who is studying for an Ethnomusicology Masters Degree in 'Social Learning Theory among Choristers in the Probationary Year in English Cathedrals' at a very, very well know English University.

[teamsaint]

Similar to Mary Chambers worries,one of my main concerns is that cathedral choirs are in reality, for many people, just a short cut to a good scholarship to a good public school.

This may well be so where the cathedral has an associated prep school but it certainly is not the case where there is no choir school.

If you consider for example St Albans. Boys are drawn from as many as a dozen or more schools and are in the choir on a purely voluntary basis because they want to be in it and their parents value the musical education they receive free of charge purely for its own sake.

VCC

well that seems like a good model.

However, that quality of musical education, for free, or even subsidised, is for the few.
As a matter of interest, I roughly calculated the cost of my sons cello lessons etc. His grade 8 probably cost £10 k, including buying a decent cello !! That achievement was very hard earned.

[Magnificat]

well that seems like a good model.

However, that quality of musical education, for free, or even subsidised, is for the few.

teamsaint

In reality it is for the few who are aware of it but in theory it is available to every boy in the land who wants to sing in a choir because every boy has the ability to sing. When he was Master of the Music at St Albans Barry Rose would take any boy and teach him to sing as long as he and his parents were prepared to make the commitment necessary to be part of a top class choir. Being able to give this sort of commitment and to do something really well doesn't limit any boy's horizons, on the contrary in fact.

VCC

[terratogen]

In fact, I am aware of a friend who is studying for an Ethnomusicology Masters Degree in 'Social Learning Theory among Choristers in the Probationary Year in English Cathedrals' at a very, very well know English University.

pole_2_pole, your friend sounds like he's doing precisely the sort of postgraduate work I'm trying to gather the courage to do sometime in the hopefully-near future when I can shrug off my parents' sighs and society's demands of 'And what do you expect to do with that degree?' (I wrote an undergraduate thesis on constructions of masculinity and power with regard to the girl/boy chorister question, but I've been sitting on it for a year for fear of being laughed out of graduate Soc/Anthro/Ed programmes.) Ethnomusicology seems like just the thing, but I have no real musical training and assumed that I wouldn't qualify. Might I be able to PM you at some point to discuss your friend's work?

In reality it is for the few who are aware of it but in theory it is available to every boy in the land who wants to sing in a choir because every boy has the ability to sing. When he was Master of the Music at St Albans Barry Rose would take any boy and teach him to sing as long as he and his parents were prepared to make the commitment necessary to be part of a top class choir.

It's a pity there aren't more Barry Roses out there and a more grievous pity still that every boy and girl who wants to sing in a choir currently cannot—in practice if not in theory—do so, be that because there's no available choir in the immediate area, because mum and dad are working and can't be shuttling the child around to near-daily choir practices and evensongs or because the family simply can't budget the expense of even half fees for five years at (in some cases) boarding prep school.

[decantor]

why is it that the people who are enthusiasts for English church music are so unwilling to discuss the music that they are most enthusiastic about in ways other than "wonderful top line" , "I thought the men were a bit blurred" etc etc
It is as if this music and it's culture are in total isolation to the rest of the universe ! To anyone who has studied the basics of ethnomusicology this is a fascinating subculture but those involved seem unable to see their world in a wider context.
Is it because there is a feeling that the hoardes are outside the walls threatening to destroy everything ? or that the church music enthusiasts are completely unaware of the rest of music and culture ? (I know that the latter isn't true of everyone involved as I have spent many hours in the pub with some eminent church musicians who seem well aware of the rest of humanity).....

I just don't understand protests of this sort. Let's consider a (different) flip. Suppose, each week, the Beeb brought us a programme where an anonymous string quartet played items from the classical and romantic repertoire. Would the ensuing discussion revolve around Beethoven's or Dvorak's place in world music? I think not. It would revolve around how well the performers had presented an established repertoire - "the second fiddle was too outspoken, the cello too self-effacing" etc. So it is with the cathedral and collegiate choirs in CE: the repertoire is known, but the quality (and spirituality, IMV) of the performance is both interesting and important. The implication that those who make specific comments are musically brain-dead or intellectually restricted is not only insulting but shows a complete lack of understanding of the issue at stake - viz. are our liturgical choirs meeting their liturgical and musical obligations. The place of Anglican sacred music in a wider context is always open to discussion - why not start a thread? - but not week by week re CE.

Yes, of course the CoE is embattled, and continues to open its own scuttles - those who appreciate its music have every right to be worried. Similarly, those who value boys' singing look largely in vain for boys' choirs outside the church - independent schools do their best, but are reviled for charging fees, as are the choir schools. The social conscience of some is smitten when they see that money (often middle-class, squeezed money) buys excellence and opportunity, ignoring the fact that the world provides few free lunches - and that many free lunches are spurned. Financial help is available to talented choristers at all levels, but the queues are short. Nothing is perfect, but much cathedral singing gets close. How far should we sacrifice standards for inclusiveness? Choristers have added to their workload through outreach: how wide is the response to their effort?

I enjoyed the Salisbury programme - articulate children who were at least prepared to say they relished what they were doing, even if the cynics say their words were scripted. But the highlight for me was their jazz big band: it was fun, it was pretty accomplished, and it proved that choristers are not trapped in an isolation ward. Now we need similar programmes from Westminster Abbey, St Paul's, Winchester, St Albans, and Derby. Golden youth comes in many guises.

[MrGongGong]

Flip it round... How would a Senegalese singer view 'English Choral Music'? As a niche, as just a category of music. Why shouldn't it be treated in a ethnomusicology fashion?

In fact, I am aware of a friend who is studying for an Ethnomusicology Masters Degree in 'Social Learning Theory among Choristers in the Probationary Year in English Cathedrals' at a very, very well know English University.

Absolutely
this sounds like

pole_2_pole, your friend sounds like he's doing precisely the sort of postgraduate work I'm trying to gather the courage to do sometime in the hopefully-near future when I can shrug off my parents' sighs and society's demands of 'And what do you expect to do with that degree?' (I wrote an undergraduate thesis on constructions of masculinity and power with regard to the girl/boy chorister question, but I've been sitting on it for a year for fear of being laughed out of graduate Soc/Anthro/Ed programmes.) Ethnomusicology seems like just the thing, but I have no real musical training and assumed that I wouldn't qualify. Might I be able to PM you at some point to discuss your friend's work?

Good luck with this it sounds fascinating stuff. I know someone who did a similar piece of research taking the LSO as a community.

I just don't understand protests of this sort. Let's consider a (different) flip. Suppose, each week, the Beeb brought us a programme where an anonymous string quartet played items from the classical and romantic repertoire. Would the ensuing discussion revolve around Beethoven's or Dvorak's place in world music? .

This really misses the point entirely

first

It's not a "protest" just an observation and something that I find puzzling
and
you are confusing the idea that "world music" is somehow "over there" rather than the "music of the world" includes "here". I was suggesting that a contextualisation like that found in ethnomusicology is an interesting way of thinking about music and its social practice. You are also confusing the study of music in an ethnomusicological context (and I was only using this as an example) which is an academic discipline with "world music" which is a marketing invention (and there's nothing wrong with that per say) .

There is much to find out and discover.

[teamsaint]

teamsaint

In reality it is for the few who are aware of it but in theory it is available to every boy in the land who wants to sing in a choir because every boy has the ability to sing. When he was Master of the Music at St Albans Barry Rose would take any boy and teach him to sing as long as he and his parents were prepared to make the commitment necessary to be part of a top class choir. Being able to give this sort of commitment and to do something really well doesn't limit any boy's horizons, on the contrary in fact.

VCC

you haven't persuaded me that in general that is is available to more than a small, and usually (though not exclusively) very well off group of people.It sounds like St Albans does great work, and I know there are other great outreach programmes.

i agree with what you suggest, that there are a lot of people who are capable of benefitting from this kind of training.you really don't need to be a musical genius, and to be fair ,cathedral directors of music frequently mention this.

The context bothers me, because the established church should not be acting as a stepping stone for the well heeled to reinforce their privileged position.

[Norfolk Born]

I enjoyed the Salisbury programme - articulate children who were at least prepared to say they relished what they were doing, even if the cynics say their words were scripted. But the highlight for me was their jazz big band: it was fun, it was pretty accomplished, and it proved that choristers are not trapped in an isolation ward. Now we need similar programmes from Westminster Abbey, St Paul's, Winchester, St Albans, and Derby. Golden youth comes in many guises.

This neatly brings us back to the purpose of my original contribution to this thread, which was simply to recommend the TV programme as a fine example of a documentary featuring some inspiring people. No TV documentary produced by human beings can hope to achieve total objectivity, but some can induce admiration - this was one such, as far as I'm concerned.

[pole_2_pole]

... Might I be able to PM you at some point to discuss your friend's work?

Have PM'd you...

[Magnificat]

It's a pity there aren't more Barry Roses out there and a more grievous pity still that every boy and girl who wants to sing in a choir currently cannot—in practice if not in theory—do so, be that because there's no available choir in the immediate area, because mum and dad are working and can't be shuttling the child around to near-daily choir practices and evensongs or because the family simply can't budget the expense of even half fees for five years at (in some cases) boarding prep school.

terratogen,

I also wonder where there is a cathedral choir available just how many boys who turn up for an audition because they, with their parents support, would like to sing in it are turned away because their voices are considered not good enough or not within the choir's range or whatever other reason?

When boys willing to do this are so scarce and because any boy can be taught to sing I really think that DoMs, if they want to keep a boys' choir going at all, no longer have the luxury of being picky. Frankly, they must do what Barry did, and make something of any voice however much more time and work it takes. It can be done, I've seen boys with very unpromising voices and who for some time can hardly sing a note in tune eventually sing a pretty respectable solo and play a full part in the choir.

VCC