Woman's Hour and the boy/girl chorister thing

[ardcarp]

Simon Lole and the Dean of Bangor were discussing this question. Given that it was for a general audience, it was, IMO, quite well done. An extract was played of a boy and a girl singing (In the Bleak and OIRDC) and the guests were asked to guess which was which. They both got it right. I did too, but worked on the assumption they would choose a boy's voice with some 'character' to make it harder! Both singers were just lovely. Pity they were not singing the same piece for comparison purposes.

The item occurs quite early on in the programme. It's fun if you want a challenge.

(I'm not going to get into trouble again by saying which sex the Dean was!)

[DracoM]

Both choristers sang like X-factor entrants - clearly they had been told / coached that that is the sound this R2 competition prefers.

Glad JM was corrected on air, because even the most cursory trawl of cathedral websites would have revealed to the prog's researchers [ erm...who?] how wrong her intro / interview remarks were about 'all the big choirs' - by which she then explained she meant KCC and Wabbey.

Does annoy me that the BBC can broadcast info that is wholly or at least half incorrect and get away with it. Will anyone remember how Simon Lole quietly corrected her, or will they remember what JM the sleb presenter said about 'the big choirs'?

Pah!

[ardcarp]

Here it is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pcvky

First item on the programme.

[decantor]

What irritates me is that, in challenging the listener to 'spot the difference', they use solo voices: some girls sound like boys, some boys sound like girls - nature and training can affect the outcome. I did guess the voices correctly, but that was mainly because I was convinced that the boy singer was Lawrence Kilsby (who won CotY in 2010)...... which perhaps helps to substantiate the claim that the CotY competition favours a particular type of voice and singing style. The greater challenge is to distinguish the sexes in choral ensemble: the stereotypes (eg. boys’ steel, girls’ satin) sometimes work, but far more often do not.

If we interpret 'big (liturgical) choirs' to mean those with an international reputation and following, it is surely true that they remain all-male for the most part - to the two mentioned, one can add St John's, New College, West.Cath., St Paul’s, and the Quiristers. But that is not to say that they are excellent because they are all-male: all are attached to large (and opulent) foundations, retain their private choir schools, and are perhaps assisted in recruitment by their reputation (and funds); their wider demotic appeal may owe something to the enduring presence of boys. My point is that JM’s question about the ‘big choirs’ had some merit, though we were left a million miles from a satisfactory answer.

Indeed, the purpose of the Woman’s Hour feature remains unclear to me. Bangor is simply joining the cohort of foundations that maintain boy and girl treble lines – a cohort that has done so with pretty uniform success, and without detriment to the boys' tradition. There’s little of substance to discuss – yet. (I had to smile when the Dean declared there was tremendous demand for a girls' choir, and they were trawling the local schools to find it. Heat of the moment remark!)

[terratogen]

@decantor:

I always enjoy hearing about the work of the cathedral choirs in unexpected places, but this presentation at times made it sound rather like Bangor is joining Manchester and St Mary's, Edinburgh in being the only three cathedrals in Britain to extend choristerships to girls. Patently untrue, of course, but if I'm not a regular worshipper at British cathedrals and don't enjoy and actively seek out the choral music made there, do I know that? Certainly, Simon Lole was right to correct the presenter on that misleading thread and to remind (or inform in the first place) the audience that the majority of cathedrals do welcome girl choristers in some capacity or another.

It also struck me slightly strange that no mention was made of why Simon Lole particularly may have been invited onto the programme: namely his affiliation with the cathedral that introduced girl choristers into the English tradition not two months ago, but two decades ago.

I don't know, however, how wrong the presenter really was in claiming that the 'big choirs' are only open to boys. It remains true that the choirs with the most visibility and the most cultural (and economic?) capital typically do not provide opportunities for girls to partake in the tradition of musical worship and all that goes with it. Think of the choirs aligned with state and ceremonial functions (Westminster Abbey; St Paul's; Chapel Royal; Canterbury); think of the chapel choirs that we hear from (and see) every Christmastime (King's, St John's, Cambridge); think of the choirs that appear in tourism brochures (London foundations; Oxbridge), photo flashes (Winchester, to an extent)— In short, think of the choirs that appear when the public have reason to gesture toward The Cathedral Choir, and you're almost always going to get boys in cassocks from well-off choral foundations.

If by 'the big choirs' the presenter meant the majority of choirs or those with the most choristers (St Paul's, of course, but also York? Durham?) or those at home in the largest cathedrals (Liverpool? Lincoln?), she'd be squarely wrong. But if by 'the big choirs' she meant those with the greatest visibility and greatest perceived (state, ceremonial, historical) importance, I think she'd be quite correct.

More on point, though: good luck to Bangor in nurturing its new treble line, and well done to Isaac and to Louisa, 2012's Choristers of the Year.

[Oldcrofter]

I've listened to the brief extracts of Isaac Waddington & Louisa Stirland on Woman's Hour - to my untrained ear they sound like trained choristers both in pronunciation and in musicality (pitch, breathing, tone etc.) What features did you hear, Draco, that led you to the conclusion that:
"Both choristers sang like X-factor entrants - clearly they had been told / coached that that is the sound this R2 competition prefers."

It's true that the BBC website mentions "vocal coaching":

( "The two chosen will each receive a trophy and tuition with a vocal coach. They will also get the opportunity to appear on national radio and television including Radio 2’s Good Morning Sunday and Radio 4’s Daily Service." )

I don't know if the Woman's Hour recordings were made during or after the finals of the competition. Do you think they were coached or told to sing in a "Radio 2/X-factor" way by someone connected with the competition or by someone at Blackburn & Chichester cathedrals ?

[ardcarp]

I'm quite interested in the response to the WH programme. I'd just say that it is a programme for the general listener and, yes it's a shame Jenny Murray got a few facts wrong (that has never stopped a journalist yet) but I was just pleased that 'our subject' was aired. I thought the two soloists had lovely voices and sang very well.

[jean]

JM never makes it clear (perhaps she didn't realise?) that she was talking about two different things - whether a choral foundation maintains both boys' and girls' top lines as separate entities, and whether it ever has them sing together.

The former is more common than the latter.

[teamsaint]

I'm quite interested in the response to the WH programme. I'd just say that it is a programme for the general listener and, yes it's a shame Jenny Murray got a few facts wrong (that has never stopped a journalist yet) but I was just pleased that 'our subject' was aired. I thought the two soloists had lovely voices and sang very well.

I didn't hear the programme, but sloppy research of this king really annoys me. Inexcusable.
happens on certain R3 programmes too often, but as its nearly Xmas I won't mention the offenders........

[ardcarp]

but sloppy research of this king really annoys me.

[teamsaint]

so Mr Ardcarp
1. my internet was all over the place this morning, and by the time I spotted the typo and tried and failed several times to mend it, I had almost given up the will to live.
2. I don't get paid to post on this board, though personally I think I should and
3. I can't remember.
(but you always have to have three. Plus I had kings on my mind from the lightening fast Non classical associations thread. )


hooppy Xmus. !!