Sal vay cee on or salvayshun

[decantor]

.......The usual reasons for spelling differences are ignorance or a mistake that has become accepted over time

Much the same has happened to the spelling of surnames - with personal preference presumably also playing its part. Curiously, the spelling of given names - which pre-date patronymic surnames as such - has for the most part been more stable, even where there is no biblical authority: eg the variations on 'Shakespeare' were not echoed by those on 'William' once it had evolved from the Latin and Norman-French forms.

Thank you, Pab, for your insights into the evolution of A-S place-names - most interesting. It is, of course, a never-ending story, but I'm most impressed that you can readily conjure up the yogh symbol - and thorn and the rest too, no doubt.

[Pabmusic]

Much the same has happened to the spelling of surnames - with personal preference presumably also playing its part. Curiously, the spelling of given names - which pre-date patronymic surnames as such - has for the most part been more stable, even where there is no biblical authority: eg the variations on 'Shakespeare' were not echoed by those on 'William' once it had evolved from the Latin and Norman-French forms.

Thank you, Pab, for your insights into the evolution of A-S place-names - most interesting. It is, of course, a never-ending story, but I'm most impressed that you can readily conjure up the yogh symbol - and thorn and the rest too, no doubt.

Great fun finding them. Here's the Lord's prayer in Anglo-Saxon.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; [Father our thou that art in the heavens]
Si þin nama gehalgod [be thy name hallowed]
to becume þin rice [to come thy kingdom (rice, pronounced 'reekuh' = modern German reich)]
gewurþe ðin willa [be done thy will]
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. [on earth as in the heavens]
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg [our daily bread give us today]
and forgyf us ure gyltas [and forgive us our sins (sins = gyltas/guilts)]
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum [as we forgive our ones-who-have-sinned-against-us]
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge [and not lead thou us into temptation]
ac alys us of yfele. Soþlice [but deliver us from evil. Truly (= soothly)]

And here are the common AS place-name elements:

ham = home/homestead (Mitcham)
tun/ton = farm/farmstead (Wilton); later 'town'
hamton = combination of the previous two (in later centuries, -ton becomes a town with walls, and hamton often acquires a 'p' because we seem to find it easier to pronounce - hampton)
burna = stream (Eastbourne; note the Frenchified spelling of -bourne. As usual, the Scots are best at preserving AS words - burn.)
denu = valley (Willesden)
dun = hill (Croydon)
ingas = the people of (Woking = the people of an AS called something like Wocca)
ingham = homestead of the people of (Nottingham = homestead of the people of Snotta; Birmingham = homestead of the people of Beormund)
ington = farmstead of the people of (Worthington)
leah = clearing, meadow (Beverley = meadow with beavers)
mere = pond (Cromer)
stan = stone (Blundeston)
stede = site of buildings (Hampstead - hamstede is the origin of 'homestead')
worth = enclosure (Rickmansworth)

To which I have to add these contemporary Danish/Viking elements:

by = homestead or farmstead (Derby, Whitby, Tenby)
dale = valley (Wensleydale)
galthr = gate (Harrogate)
holmr = flat ground near a river (Holmfirth, Oxenholme)
thorpe = outlying farmstead (Cleethorpes)
thveit = clearing (Braithwaite)
toft = plot of land (Lowestoft)

For completeness, here are the common Celtic and Roman elements in English place-names (all older than the previous ones);

Celtic:

combe = deep valley (Salcombe)
pen = hill (Penrith)
pol = pool (Polperro)
tre = farmstead (Trevose)

Roman:

castra = fortified town (AS adoption = ceaster, which we know as Chester)
colonia = settlement (Lincoln)
porta = gate (Stockport)
portus = harbour (Portsmouth)
strata = street (Stratford)

And - finally - an example. I was born near Winchester and grew up there, so here's the story of its name.

1. The tribe that appears to have named it first was a Celtic tribe that the Romans called the Belgae (the same lot that gave their name to Belgium!). They called it something like Caer Gwent (White City) - presumably because it's surrounded by chalk. The important part is the Celtic element for 'white' - wen.

2. It was big enough when the Romans arrived for them to take over the existing name. Or at least they kept the 'wen' sound, but turned it into Venta Belgarum ('a place the Belgae call Ven'). By the way, this is good evidence that the Romans pronounced V as W, at least in formal writing.

3. Along came the Anglo Saxons (Jutes, more like) and settled there, calling it Winton ('a town - ton, in its later meaning - the locals call "Win"') plus -ceaster, because it was a fortified Roman town. Wintonceaster.

4. More than 1000 years of adaptation have left us with Winchester.

[ardcarp]

Dear Pabs,

Once again I am astonished by your erudition! I have no specialist knowledge of such things, but having visited rellies in Norway over the past 45 years, I've picked up a few words of Norse origin, and I was under the impression that 'gate' (as in Harrogate, etc) means 'street' or 'road' rather than the English 'gate' which you have suggested above. Do please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe some English cities (Gloucester, York?) have street names such as Eastgate, Westgate, which could of course imply gates in a city wall...but I gather that local historians tend to the view that they originate from East-street and West-street.

(My, how we've strayed from the thread title!)

[Pabmusic]

Dear Pabs,

Once again I am astonished by your erudition! I have no specialist knowledge of such things, but having visited rellies in Norway over the past 45 years, I've picked up a few words of Norse origin, and I was under the impression that 'gate' (as in Harrogate, etc) means 'street' or 'road' rather than the English 'gate' which you have suggested above. Do please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe some English cities (Gloucester, York?) have street names such as Eastgate, Westgate, which could of course imply gates in a city wall...but I gather that local historians tend to the view that they originate from East-street and West-street.

(My, how we've strayed from the thread title!)

Yes we've strayed - it's down to me, I'm afraid. Perhaps we should have a separate thread.

I looked around a bit and found two different meanings - AS geat meaning 'gate' or 'gap', and Norse galthr, meaning road or street. So I think it's fair to say that, if the town was in the Danelaw, it'll be the Norse variety (York - and Harrogate), if not, it's probably the AS one (Gloucester?). Also, we might get a clue from when the street was so named (if later, it'll probably mean "the road to the west gate" in Middle English, particularly if there was a west gate there).

[aeolium]

Pabmusic msg 47 - lovely stuff

Please do start a separate thread (on the R3 Arts forum?) on word origins/old languages.

I always like hearing Old English spoken. It would be good to hear the OE version of the Lord's Prayer.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Pabmusic msg 47 - lovely stuff

Please do start a separate thread (on the R3 Arts forum?) on word origins/old languages.

I always like hearing Old English spoken. It would be good to hear the OE version of the Lord's Prayer.

There's this (rather New-Agey) attempt (not sure why they chose images from Scotland to accompany it ... ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Much better:

http://www.pastperfect.org.uk/sites/yeavering/archive/prayerclip.html

[aeolium]

Much better:

http://www.pastperfect.org.uk/sites/...rayerclip.html

Thanks, ferney (though a bit professorially read, as if he were reading the weather forecast in Anglo-Saxon )

[Pabmusic]

By popular demand, there's a new thread called 'The Evolution of Language'. Enjoy!

[ardcarp]

It's here:

http://www.for3.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?71-Radio-3-Arts

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=Pabmusic;246299]

Thanks - I'd not noticed that. The usual reasons for spelling differences are ignorance or a mistake that has become accepted over time

Pabmusic

I'm not sure about this as there is another village in Hertfordshire, Little Berkhamsted, which is also spelt without the 'a'.

Little Berkhamsted, by the way, ( and to perhaps pull this thread back on to the choral track ) is the birth place of the great hymn writer Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, educated at New College, Oxford and sometime connected with Winchester College.

One of my favourite hymns of his is 'Glory To Thee O God This Night.' It is often sung at midweek trebles only evensong at St Albans with one of the verses sung by the boys alone in canon - absolutely beautiful.

VCC.

[Simon]

Thanks to you all for these illuminating digressions, and the new thread. Espcecially to Pab who is clearly a scholar in the field. Please keep going Pab! (Though you should by rights be charging us. )

OE and the formation of language is one of my major interests - I remember talking to ff about Beowulf years ago. There wasn't anything on the net then - there is now though! Some fascinating excerpts and readings. I've even managed to learn some myself!

I'm due away early a.m. so need to get to bed, and it might be a while before I'm back. But I'll really look forward to reading what you have all said!

Take care and all good wishes,

S-S!

[Pabmusic]

...Please keep going Pab! Though you should by rights be charging us. ...

That's kind of you, but I couldn't stop if I wanted to - once I get going on a pet subject (Mrs Pab often turns to me with a knowing look and says "That's enough. No lectures today".) I've always been interested in origins - why are we as we are now?

As to payment, why should anyone be paid for regurgitating anyone else's work?

[WmByrd]

Which is odd in itself, because Elizabethan manuscripts are just as likely to spell the word tribulacionis. I know one Elizabethan source of Latin music that has orthographical variants such as sussipe, dessendit, seli [et terra], etc.

"Salva-tee-on" seems positively perverse to me. But now that has got me wondering how they pronounced "righ-tee-ousness".

Perverse it is. Perhaps they are just wrong! Anyhow, I should think they have committed rather more egregious offences against music.