Sal vay cee on or salvayshun

[gradus]

Grateful for an explanation of the different ways these 'ation' words are sung. Lichfield the other day in the former category but i have to say it sounds odd to me. Is this just the preference of the music director or is there a generally understood 'correct' way.

[decantor]

The four-syllable version (*salvayceeon) undoubtedly sits far better under the written notes in many Elizabethan and early Jacobean settings: *salvayshun can sound ungainly in those contexts. Conversely, 'spirit' is often accorded a single note, suggesting the pronunciation *spreet (cf. 'sprite').

Others will hopefully supply more scholarly historical background.

[Gabriel Jackson]

The four-syllable version (*salvayceeon) undoubtedly sits far better under the written notes in many Elizabethan and early Jacobean settings: *salvayshun can sound ungainly in those contexts. Conversely, 'spirit' is often accorded a single note, suggesting the pronunciation *spreet (cf. 'sprite').

Others will hopefully supply more scholarly historical background.

That's about the size of it, isn't it? Same with the likes of rejoic-ed & rejoic'd. As LP Hartley said...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This opens up a whole can of worms. Latin is another one - Aveh or Avay, or (as in the time of Byrd - Ayvee).
Then there's the "a" sound. Not so long ago, this was pronounced more like an "e" in choral singing - "thet men there" for "that man there".
I sang with the York Chapter House Choir in the late 80s and early 90s and that was the way we pronounce the short "a". More problematic is when short "a" words are supposed to rhyme with long "a" words - "masses" and "brasses"; "grass" and "lass". Here in the civilised north, it always rhymes anyway, but when you're trying to be posh, it becomes a problem.

[Pabmusic]

...More problematic is when short "a" words are supposed to rhyme with long "a" words - "masses" and "brasses"; "grass" and "lass". Here in the civilised north, it always rhymes anyway, but when you're trying to be posh, it becomes a problem.

The long 'a' in 'brass' or 'grass' is a recent (late 18th Century) feature of standard English pronunciation (ie: the English of the London-Oxford-Cambridge triangle). I had understood, but can't now find an authority, that it was a 'Frenchifictation' adopted at the time of the Revolution, along with the 'u' in colour, honour, etc. In any case, it is unlikely that such words would have been pronounced differently in the 16th and 17th Centuries. That it not to say that they were pronounced as they are in Northern speech today. There was definitely a tendency in the 18th Century to pronounce the short a as a short e - 'thet' instead of 'that' - that persisted in standard English into the second half of the 20th Century. But that, too, might have been an affectation.

[DracoM]

Some sing salvaTion - no sh. Depends on the period of the setting. I'd go with decantor.

[kernelbogey]

... There was definitely a tendency in the 18th Century to pronounce the short a as a short e - 'thet' instead of 'that' - that persisted in standard English into the second half of the 20th Century. But that, too, might have been an affectation.

Off topic, but inspired by Pabs' scholarly note 'thet' pronunciation of short a has persisted in Germany where it is taught as standard. I assume this is a relic of German teachers having originally been taught, or at least influenced, by posh southerners (or perhaps English officers in the late forties?).

[Oldcrofter]

For our entertainments evenings (music & humorous readings) we usually have an trad. CofE SATB psalm with new words commenting on something in the news - e.g. Plebgate. Our friend who writes these always makes sure there are a couple of "-ation" words - "our nay-see-on" "rep-u-tay-see-on" etc. Our audiences are sufficiently versed in the old (?) style of church singing to show their appre-see-ay-see-on.

You're right about German pronunciation of English. Young learners are still taught to say "We hev a bleck car."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"We hev a bleck car."

The Queen, the Duke and David Cameron would probably say that, though Prince Andrew and Prince William would not.

But when something doesn't rhyme because the long and short pronounciations are so different, as in "Deck the Hall" and "The Peers' Chorus" (Iolanthe) it can sound rather strange. As to whether the old pronunciations were like current northern ones is uncertain, but there is evidence to suggest that Elizabethan English had a moderate Geordie tinge.

[Gary Cole]

To hear the perfect rendition of short 'a's as 'e' try to get hold of the fabulous, but long-deleted, LP of King's under Sir David singing Howells. This includes Coll Reg and St Paul's evening canticles, and the organ was played by Andrew Davis, no less, who was organ scholar at the time. We get text-book '...and heth regarded...', 'He heth put down...', '...and heth regarded the lowliness of his hend-maiden...'

[Pabmusic]

Off topic, but inspired by Pabs' scholarly note 'thet' pronunciation of short a has persisted in Germany where it is taught as standard. I assume this is a relic of German teachers having originally been taught, or at least influenced, by posh southerners (or perhaps English officers in the late forties?).

[jean]

: 'thet' pronunciation of short a has persisted in Germany where it is taught as standard. I assume this is a relic of German teachers having originally been taught, or at least influenced, by posh southerners (or perhaps English officers in the late forties?).

And in Poland, where the highly prestigious phonology department of the University of Poznan has produced generations of Polish speakers who sound like very upper-class English people.

A lot has happened to the pronunciation of English a in recent years. Remember the anecdote about the distinguished visiting professor who arrives for a lecture to find that he's left the folder containing his notes behind. "Fax it up", suggests his (rather younger) secretary. "Yes it does rather, doesn't it?" says the professor.

[jean]

Some sing salvaTion - no sh. Depends on the period of the setting.

But mostly, when it's four syllables, it's sal-vay-cee-on. Indeed I don't think I've ever heard sal-vay-tee-on.

Which is odd, because groups attempting authentic Elizabethan pronunciation of Latin (as Stile Antico did last week) tend to sing eg. tri-bu-la-Ti-on-is.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Off topic, but inspired by Pabs' scholarly note 'thet' pronunciation of short a has persisted in Germany where it is taught as standard. I assume this is a relic of German teachers having originally been taught, or at least influenced, by posh southerners (or perhaps English officers in the late forties?).

It might also suggest an American influence, as German English has a very strong American twang (and they don't know how to spell "centre" )

[Pabmusic]

It might also suggest an American influence, as German English has a very strong American twang (and they don't know how to spell "centre" )

'Centre' is one of the (largely 18th Century) Frenchifications. We largely stopped spelling it 'center' and the new spelling became very fashionable. The Americans did likewise, but Noah Webster insisted it should be 'center' and included it in his dictionary in 1838 - hence the American spelling.

Vowel sounds have changed amazingly over the years (it's known as the Great Vowel Shift, spanning roughly 1300-1800). It accounts for the confusion over the 'er' sound, for instance. Chaucer would have pronounced it 'ar' (as in the word 'ers' in the Miller's tale). Anyone with the name Marchant preserves the old pronunciation of 'merchant' but with the new spelling, whereas we retain the old spelling for 'merchant' with its new pronunciation.

Maybe 'thet' is simply an older pronunciation (I don't know).

[Takes off anorak.]