Westminster Abbey on BBC2

[teamsaint]

True but equally in the same breath if perhaps they pop down the local shop and buy another 40 fags....question of priorities.

Well maybe a good government would say to people,"stop buying cigs, get on that train on your family railcard, and get to London where you can see parts of your country's heritage, including Westminster Abbey, for free."
Of course you have a point about priorities, but that goes for our governments too.

[Simon]

< Great shame, then, that the usual pedants have to drag their dreary viewpoint into the thread. >

This Forum is about opinions, debates, and exchanges of information - its raison d'etre - dreary, pedantic, exasperating, sympathetic or otherwise though those opinions may be to any particular member.

Yes. But there's one person who manages to drag in his anti-establishment, anti-Christian, anti-monarchy opinions into so many threads that it does get rather wearing. It's not as if he comes up with any decent or witty points, or any balanced argument: just the same old tired envy that's been written in the pages of leftwing papers for decades. <yawn>

[David-G]

Just finished watching Episode 1. I thought it was a privilege to be given an insight into the daily running of such a wonderful institution. A history stretching back hundreds of years. Quaint titles such as Royal Peculiar and Surveyor of the Fabric. I came away with an overwhelming sense of belonging and tradition of all that work there. Looking forward to the rest of the series very much.

Thank you for contributing that, RM. I had thought that the virtues of this series were being quite lost in the political discussion.

[Nick Armstrong]

Thank you for contributing that, RM. I had thought that the virtues of this series were being quite lost in the political discussion.

Have you watched the second one, David (or RM or teamsaint)? Apart from the rather parochial section about the wedding near the end, I thought it was rather good. I've watched the sections about the Sistine Chapel several times...

[David-G]

I shall try to watch the repeat tomorrow evening.

[ardcarp]

I've just watched it too. It is good that the producers (who had to do stuff about weddings, I suppose) continued to focus very heavily on the music, which is surely of great interest to us. I thought the choir sounded good in the snippets we heard. James O'D came over as a very capable and calm man. I dare say his diplomatic skills were in overdrive during the Rome visit! My predictions about the lay vicars seem to have been right so far. OK, we've seen and heard them, but none has been interviewed.

I see that the battle continues to rage on the Forum about two issues which might be summarised as (1) entry fees and (2) the class thing.

(1) The Abbey (the Canon Treasurer?) was quite up-front about raising the cash from tourists. I remain uneasy about it, and wonder if the coffers of our royal family, for whom it is so important, are ever suggested as a source of revenue?

(2) One just cannot help but feel the Abbey is an institution based on privilege. I was underwhelmed by Canon Jane's mention of the 'hospitality' side of the Benedictine foundation when the hospitality we witnessed extended to Abbey staff and not to the poor and needy. It seems also that the abbey of Monte Casino is not short on its opulent furnishings!

I can wholly respect the views of, for instance, Resurrection Man, who feels proud of our traditions and feels privileged to have a view from the inside.
I can wholly respect, too, that some feel uneasy about the mis-match between basic Christian ethics and a well-oiled, slickly managed institution, with more than a whiff of the old school tie about it.

I'll be watching episode III anyway!

[Alison]

Very good summary.

I'm still hoping that we might hear of some sort of ministry to the needy of London but won't hold my breath.

[Resurrection Man]

.....
(2) One just cannot help but feel the Abbey is an institution based on privilege. I was underwhelmed by Canon Jane's mention of the 'hospitality' side of the Benedictine foundation when the hospitality we witnessed extended to Abbey staff and not to the poor and needy......!

But that could simply be down to editing by the producer. How do we know that they don't?

When they explained in Episode 2 that the running costs were £11 million and that 90% came from admission fees I can't really see the griping going on about £16. Especially from what I could see were mainly foreign tourists.

[teamsaint]

Well , just finished watching it. Not much to add to Ardcarps excellent summary. I really enjoyed J O'D's important contribution..it clearly was a particularly special event for him. The absence of almost anything at all from the Lay Clerks is disappointing, not least for them.


Nothing to change my mind on other matters. Just as a very broad comparison, the National gallery receives well over £25 m of public finance PA.
£16 per person is a LOT of money to many families.I do know people who have been put off visiting our cathedrals by admission charges, and that is a real shame.

[mangerton]

But that could simply be down to editing by the producer. How do we know that they don't?

We don't, of course, but I rather suspect that if they did, we'd have heard about it.

I first went to the abbey in 1965 with my parents and sister. For a family of four today that would be £38. I don't know whether they charged in 1965, but if the charges then had been commensurate with today's, I doubt very much that we could have afforded to go.

[David-G]

I first went to the abbey in 1965 with my parents and sister. For a family of four today that would be £38. I don't know whether they charged in 1965, but if the charges then had been commensurate with today's, I doubt very much that we could have afforded to go.

At that time there was a charge to visit the royal chapels. Entrance to the nave, choir and transepts was free.

£16 per person is a LOT of money to many families.I do know people who have been put off visiting our cathedrals by admission charges, and that is a real shame.

I agree. I think the cathedrals should set up a "Friends of English Cathedrals" organisation. For a subscription of perhaps £80 - £100 (?) per year, one could get unlimited admission to any cathedral for a year. It would be rather like being a member of the National Trust or of English Heritage. I would think very hard before paying £16 for a single visit to a cathedral, but I would join such a Friends organisation if it existed.

[decantor]

I do not share the general unease about charging for admission to the Abbey, though I do feel the charges are on the high side. But let's add some perspective. At their Old Trafford ground, Manchester United charge £16 for a tour (including the museum); there are concessions - for example, a family of four is charged £48. The Abbey also charges £16, but the concession for a family of four is £38. So......priorities? Value to the nation and value to the individual? I suppose it all depends on one's religion and sense of history, but at least the going-rate at each temple is much the same. Interestingly, when Man Utd celebrate their weekly rites, ticket prices range from £50 to £120 (or more); when the Abbey holds its daily services, admission is free.

As for WA Part II, I thought the Minor Canon's wedding featured too largely - it stressed the introverted, self-referential nature of the institution. But I do not worry over "slick" and "well oiled" and "old school tie". The church runs its missions in deprived areas, but that is not the Abbey's role. The Abbey is a symbolic figurehead, almost an organ of The State, better designed for furthering ecumenism, as we saw, or representing national identity (malgré our resident cynics). And of course the river of music continues to flow through it gloriously. I noted that Monte Cassino - what a place! - was rebuilt at state expense: remind me how the new Coventry Cathedral was funded.

Ardcarp, it seems you might win the bet about the Lay Vicars. I shall pay up - with savage regrets over the politicking!

[Resurrection Man]

I agree. I think the cathedrals should set up a "Friends of English Cathedrals" organisation. For a subscription of perhaps £80 - £100 (?) per year, one could get unlimited admission to any cathedral for a year. It would be rather like being a member of the National Trust or of English Heritage. I would think very hard before paying £16 for a single visit to a cathedral, but I would join such a Friends organisation if it existed.

Westminster Abbey does. http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/entry-charges Annual pass.

And on a more general note....how much is a season ticket to see a group of overpaid prima donnas kick an inflated leather ball around? £800 per annum plus compulsory additional purchase of other 'special' match tickets?

[ardcarp]

Ardcarp, it seems you might win the bet about the Lay Vicars. I shall pay up - with savage regrets over the politicking!

Put your cheque book away pro tem, Decantor. You never know what the Grand Finale might throw up.

[Wolsey]

I do not share the general unease about charging for admission to the Abbey, though I do feel the charges are on the high side. But let's add some perspective.

Indeed. An examination of the charges shown on the websites of members of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions which had the highest visitor numbers last year (http://alva.org.uk/details.cfm?p=423 ) reveals that (concessions and online discounts aside) a single ticket to the Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew costs £14.50; The Tower of London £20.90; Chester Zoo £13.50; Edinburgh Castle £14.50/£16 (low/high season); Bath Pump Rooms £12.50; Eden Project £23.50. Westminster Abbey was the eighth most-popular tourist attraction in 2011, and the Tower is seventh; the top six visitor attractions are all museums and art galleries. With this information, the Abbey's admission charges can perhaps be better seen in perspective, and it may, therefore, be wondered what - precisely - is the issue. For all those balking at the price of a family ticket for two adults and two children at Westminster Abbey, you may find that an examination of those prices at other top (charging) tourist attractions proves a sobering experience.