Westminster Abbey on BBC2

[ardcarp]

Hope you're right about the lay vicars having their turn, Decantor. I have my doubts for various reasons, but let's hope I'm proved wrong. It's not impossible that some may peek at this forum now and again...so maybe they could spill the beans?

[MickyD]

For heaven's sake, don't try that at the Abbey! I stopped, quite briefly, to look at something or other whilst walking through the nave to evensong and was accosted by a functionary and escorted into the quire. It's amazing how much menace can be worked into the phrase "Can I help you, sir?"

Escorting six teenage Spanish students around London last July, I thought it might be interesting for them to see the Abbey. We turned up in time for evensong, and I warned the kids that if they wanted to go in, they would have to sit through the service and not be able to wander around chatting. The functionary didn't look that happy when we entered, but I told him that we intended to attend the service, and he did at least have the grace to show us to some seats. Much to my surprise and pleasure (and theirs!), the kids really enjoyed the experience and were delighted to have been in the famous place where the Royal Wedding had taken place. They also commented that it was so nice to hear so much singing when similar services in Spain mainly feature a lot of speech.

It struck me that it can't be easy for staff to cope with such an influx of tourists who may not be quite so respectful.

[Magnificat]

Back to the programme...... I enjoyed it unashamedly.

I enjoyed it too I hope we hear young Luciano singing at some point - with a name like that he could be quite good!!

I thought the Dean came across very well and it's good to see the assistant organists/ organ scholar being given a decent share of training the choristers, something that is vital for them and doesn't always happen.

VCC

[ardcarp]

I thought the Dean came across very well

...in the sense of PR for the Abbey?

[David-G]

David G. There was indeed much of interest in the TV programme, and as I mentioned, it is good there was so much focus on the music. Indeed the Abbey is to some extent 'an organ of state'. I can however understand a slight unease. One cannot help but ask what some of its functions, fabrics and traditions have got to do with the tenets of Christianity. I feel somewhat hypocritical in saying this since I am (to put it at its best) only a lukewarm, semi-detached adherent of faith. And I do like a bit of fancy music and some ceremony. But to wishy-washy Christians like me, the message of the Gospels has nothing to do with materialism, elitism or privilege. One thinks of the 'hospitalers' of medieval monasteries whose function was to reach out to the poor and needy.

As a non-Christian myself, I do not have to concern myself worrying whether the functions, fabrics and traditions of the Abbey have anything to do with the tenets of Christianity. But it seems to me that many of these functions etc are a direct expression of the Establishment of the C of E. It might seem a curious view for me to hold, but as a non-Christian I regard the Establishment of the C of E as being of great importance. It is part of the fabric of the country, like the monarchy, and thus part of what makes England a fine country to live in. I would regard any prospect of disestablishment of the C of E as very worrying. I therefore do not share your concerns regarding the traditions of the Abbey; and I would suggest that you too do not need to feel uneasy.

[teamsaint]

David-G, the things that you highlight are precisely some of the things that do make me and many others uneasy about our country.

As far as I am concerned , things like the monarchy are an absolute disaster for the country. On her jubilee visit to Salisbury, the royals were driven from the station to the close, spent an hour and a half having lunch in the Rifles museum, had a 40 minute spin rount the Cathedral, unveiled a plaque to herself , and left.
Military? C of E ?looked a lot like a rallying call to all her loyal supporters to lots of people.
To return to Westminster Abbey, if it really is to be at "The centre of national life", perhaps the people of this country should be allowed free access, not charged on the door, and made to feel unwelcome. It is OUR heritage. Should we, for instancce, really have to pay to visit the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier?

[MrGongGong]

Careful chaps you will get banned for deviating from the script

[ardcarp]

OK, McGG, I think I'm treading carefully here, even if going off at a bit of a tangent. Does anyone remember when there was a Westminster Abbey 'Special Choir'? I think it consisted of men and boys recruited locally (if that's possible in SW1) and the idea was to sing services during choirschool holidays and/or to do the occasional choral concert in the Abbey. I think it may have come to an end during Simon Preston's reign.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

if they show that dreadful trailer for this programme one more time i mighht chain myself to some railings or write to the Times etc ... it is dire .... the programme i saw was just like all the others and not worth the effort ...establishment narcissism on AUNT innit

[Simon]

Careful, Calum. You're sounding like "Outraged of Islington" !

Seriously, though, why not get your mates together and smash all the establishment in one go. You know, fire the Palace, wreck the neocrap alongside the Thames, bulldoze Wabbey and St Pauls, execute all the Aristos and take out the lackeys at the BBC. Not forgetting Thames House, of course - perhaps that should be the first target?

Distribute everybody's wealth equally (except of course for your leaders, who would naturally need more ) and then the Socialist Utopian Dream would come true and we could all live happily ever after.

For week. Until some had spent all their money and some had saved it. Then we'd be unequal again and we'd have to start over...

(The last sentence above, of course, illustrates the fatal flaw in redistribution arguments).

[MrGongGong]

For week. Until some had spent all their money and some had saved it. Then we'd be unequal again and we'd have to start over...

Of course , I had forgotten that god made the rich people rich
the only reason that some people are poor is because of a flaw in their character

so how on earth does this square with your so called "Christianity" ...............

now what did the beardy man say ? ........

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Careful, Calum. You're sounding like "Outraged of Islington" !

Seriously, though, why not get your mates together and smash all the establishment in one go. You know, fire the Palace, wreck the neocrap alongside the Thames, bulldoze Wabbey and St Pauls, execute all the Aristos and take out the lackeys at the BBC. Not forgetting Thames House, of course - perhaps that should be the first target?

Distribute everybody's wealth equally (except of course for your leaders, who would naturally need more ) and then the Socialist Utopian Dream would come true and we could all live happily ever after.

For week. Until some had spent all their money and some had saved it. Then we'd be unequal again and we'd have to start over...

(The last sentence above, of course, illustrates the fatal flaw in redistribution arguments).

quite but i am not a redistributor in favour of equality, nor a red blooded socialist .... i detest inequality [not the same thing at all]

the trappings of a faded imperial elite have no meaningful relevance for me [the CofE, public schools Tories and Toffs etc] nor the nostalgias of the Little England Freemasonry, nor any trappiongs of the mystic past .... i am an enlightenment idealist, a radical from a London street, i am no 'Englishman' ...

[Simon]

Of course , I had forgotten that god made the rich people rich
the only reason that some people are poor is because of a flaw in their character

so how on earth does this square with your so called "Christianity" ...............

now what did the beardy man say ? ........

Do you actually read peoples' posts before you "reply" to them? Or do you have some inbuilt processing thingy that prevents you from logical thought?

I only ask because never in a million years is your post relevant to the point that you quoted from mine...

[Simon]

quite but i am not a redistributor in favour of equality, nor a red blooded socialist .... i detest inequality [not the same thing at all]

the trappings of a faded imperial elite have no meaningful relevance for me [the CofE, public schools Tories and Toffs etc] nor the nostalgias of the Little England Freemasonry, nor any trappiongs of the mystic past .... i am an enlightenment idealist, a radical from a London street, i am no 'Englishman' ...

Good to hear it. Well, we agree on some of that, anyway! And we need people like you Calum, to balance the ones at the other end.

[chitreb]

What a fascinating thread. Many very strongly held views are being expressed under the auspices of an "independent forum for Radio 3 listeners" and the sub-forum "The Choir". I wonder which programmes on Radio 3 are the regular fare of Calum, Simon and Mr GongGong?