'Difficult' choral music, opinions on

[Gabriel Jackson]

I can't argue with that, Gabriel - though I'm sure you'd accept that after forty years even those who had read the Guardian might have (if only accidentally) grasped some concept based on common sense and reality...

I don't read The Guardian, Simon, so I wouldn't know...!

[Simon]

[Simon]

...neither shall I be caught dead in a surplice...

Shame. You might look rather stunning in a surplice...

[Roehre]

Any choir being able to sing/perform properly
Webern's Entflieht auf leichten Kähnen op.2
or
Krenek's Lamentationes
cannot be a bad.

If they cannot, well, then something needs to be discussed re its qualities.

[DracoM]

The Arnold Schoenberg Choir?

[Roehre]

The Arnold Schoenberg Choir?

They do/did

[mercia]

the Nunc Dimittis actually begins with a D/E/F held cluster from the organ, clearly establishing a D minor tonality;

with an E flat in the pedal

I don't quite see the helpfulness of establishing a D minor tonality, the treble soloist soon has to sing three C naturals, and proceeds not to sing in D minor at all

[Gabriel Jackson]

with an E flat in the pedal

I don't quite see the helpfulness of establishing a D minor tonality, the treble soloist soon has to sing three C naturals, and proceeds not to sing in D minor at all

Which drops out, leaving the D minor cluster. The D minor feel is helpful in finding the initial G. Following that G with F, E and C is no great trauma!

[mercia]

Following that G with F, E and C is no great trauma!

true, though I don't see how the C# in the choir is "helpful"

and what helps the soloist get the A flat, E flat, B flat in bars 8/9/10 ?

[rauschwerk]

Surely one cannot generalise. However, I do wonder if anybody now sings at all the kind of thing with which the John Alldis Choir made their name 50 years ago (see his various obituaries) and some of which they recorded (little or none has found its way in to CD).

[Oldcrofter]

Here's the Webern with the John Alldis choir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHV46N8xINw

And the first section of Krenek's Lamentatio(nes): (not the Alldis)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFb8ahrrwyQ

I'm afraid I can't say if the two items are performed "properly", Roehre. I know lots of choirs that could not sing those pieces - nor would they particularly wish to. Nor would their audiences wish them to.

I'm not sure how to interpret your comment that if a choir cannot sing or perform these two pieces properly "well, then something needs to be discussed re its (the choir's) qualities" Your real opinion or heavy irony ?

[Gabriel Jackson]

Surely one cannot generalise. However, I do wonder if anybody now sings at all the kind of thing with which the John Alldis Choir made their name 50 years ago (see his various obituaries) and some of which they recorded (little or none has found its way in to CD).

It's a shame so few of those recordings made it so CD, I agree. The BBC Singers regularly do that kind of thing, of course, but a lot of the pieces witten for the John Alldis Choir do seem to have disappeared from anyone's repertoire, don't they?

[Gabriel Jackson]

true, though I don't see how the C# in the choir is "helpful"

and what helps the soloist get the A flat, E flat, B flat in bars 8/9/10 ?

Their ears and their brain?!

[mercia]

sorry, I haven't quite followed the reasoning

I'm told the composer helps the soloist on his first entry because he sings the subdominant of the established key
in bar 8 he has to sing a C natural followed by A flat - and this is apparently still helped by the established key of D minor, even though neither of those notes are in the scale of D minor


"Tippett ...... gives the treble soloist as much help as possible"

[Gabriel Jackson]

sorry, I haven't quite followed the reasoning

I'm told the composer helps the soloist on his first entry because he sings the subdominant of the established key
in bar 8 he has to sing a C natural followed by A flat - and this is apparently still helped by the established key of D minor, even though neither of those notes are in the scale of D minor


"Tippett ...... gives the treble soloist as much help as possible"

That's because that isn't the reasoning! What I wrote is that the composer helps the treble soloist find his first note thus. I did not say that the movement remains in D minor, or that the initial D minor helps with the A flat (which is a minor 6th higher than C - not the worst interval in the world to have to pitch).
But since you don't appear to know what notes are, or can be, in a scale of D minor, perhaps it isn't surprising that you are having difficulty following any of this.