BBC Singers live from St Paul's, Knightsbridge

[ardcarp]

They're on now. Anyone listening????!!!!

[Roehre]

They're on now. Anyone listening????!!!!

Not "live" as surely I will be interrupted in my listening, something I HATE
But I'll use iPlayer later on, most likely tomorrow.

[Old Grumpy]

Yes, top notch - and I do appreciate the words of wisdom from CB - even if it does rather blow open the St Cecilia - Patron Saint of music myth!

OG

[ardcarp]

I appreciated CB's words of wisdom, as always.

[Vile Consort]

Listened briefly. It sounded desperately uninteresting. Were they just coming round from an anaesthetic or something?

[ardcarp]

Well, the usual BBC Singers supporters can shoot me down in flames, but the question that would not go away (until I turned off in despair) was "Why?"

There are so many groups that can do this repertoire well (including PP's own outfit) it just seems perverse that these singers should be put out of their comfort zone. PP was obviously trying to do something with them but the result was boring and not always well tuned. Stifling the sopranos' natural instincts just made them sound lacklustre, whilst random male voices protruded. Allons gays beregeres sounded more like a funeral dirge. Mrs Ardcarp, hearing a snatch from afar off, wondered if it was one of G. Malone's things, retired department store managers perhaps? I wonder what CB secretly thought? (OK CB, I know you can't say!)

The management must be desperate to get their money's worth from this group. Aren't there other ways than this?

[Roehre]

Well, the usual BBC Singers supporters can shoot me down in flames, but the question that would not go away (until I turned off in despair) was "Why?"

There are so many groups that can do this repertoire well (including PP's own outfit) it just seems perverse that these singers should be put out of their comfort zone. PP was obviously trying to do something with them but the result was boring and not always well tuned. Stifling the sopranos' natural instincts just made them sound lacklustre, whilst random male voices protruded. Allons gays beregeres sounded more like a funeral dirge. Mrs Ardcarp, hearing a snatch from afar off, wondered if it was one of G. Malone's things, retired department store managers perhaps? I wonder what CB secretly thought? (OK CB, I know you can't say!)

The management must be desperate to get their money's worth from this group. Aren't there other ways than this?

I only listened (so far) to the pre-interval part (the rest tomorrow), but I am afraid I share your opinion, Ardcarp.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Well, the usual BBC Singers supporters can shoot me down in flames, but the question that would not go away (until I turned off in despair) was "Why?"

There are so many groups that can do this repertoire well (including PP's own outfit) it just seems perverse that these singers should be put out of their comfort zone. PP was obviously trying to do something with them but the result was boring and not always well tuned. Stifling the sopranos' natural instincts just made them sound lacklustre, whilst random male voices protruded. Allons gays beregeres sounded more like a funeral dirge. Mrs Ardcarp, hearing a snatch from afar off, wondered if it was one of G. Malone's things, retired department store managers perhaps? I wonder what CB secretly thought? (OK CB, I know you can't say!)

The management must be desperate to get their money's worth from this group. Aren't there other ways than this?

This is all so boring (and, frankly, ill-informed). I was at the concert. Why would Peter continue to work with the group if the results are so unsatisfactory? Why assume Kate Bott thinks as you do? How many of tonight's singers also sing with/have sung with the Tallis Scholars? Who says the singers were "out of their comfort zone"? (It seems they can't win, whatever they do...). There is more than one way to sing Renaissance polyphony (more than one way to sing anything, of course).

[ardcarp]

Thought we might be hearing from you, Gabriel.

I dare say PP works with them 'cos he gets paid.

[DracoM]

They started out with good intentions, but as the programme unfolded, they slipped back further and further into the standard BBC Singers default ff > fff more or less throughout, brisk tempi, each section striving to outdo every other section to be heard - in other words singing like soloists - and it was actually a very, very dull concert, enlivened only by CB's comments / intros.

And I echo ardcarp to the syllable: this country has some of the finest Renaissance singing groups anywhere, from cathedrals to The Sixteen, Tallis Scholars, Stile Antico et al et al, backed by much research by specialist musicians into singing styles etc. Yet the BBC Singers still sing as if it was the 1950's. You really do expect them to break into 'Sing Something Simple' at any moment.

They are indeed brilliant sight-readers who can sing anything, but their niche market derives from their forte which is in particularly modern, usually difficult material from a relatively small group of composers that they have the time and resources to rehearse and master. Those composers now know what the BBC wants from them and can oblige with a performing ensemble that can encompass their every demand, such that it becomes a sort of circle of mutual advantage. Much of the time you feel they sing what they do because no-one else does / could sing it. In its way, of course, this is very laudable, since it allows some contemporary composers to gain exposure. Numbers of the Singers may indeed sing for other ensembles, but then they adopt and adapt to local conditions. However, when with the BBC Singers they similarly seem to adopt and adapt to the house style. Which for a number of listeners is these days unacceptable. And before sentiments such as mine and others on this thread are rubbished as ill-informed etc, it needs to be remembered OTOH that a number of those supporting them are those who for a variety of reasons have to be seen to defend them. They may all be lovely people, they are indeed manifestly fine musicians, but something unfortunate happens when they become the BBC Singers.

I don't like their house style and never have, and particularly not in this repertoire. In the Renaissance field, to programme the BBC Singers to sing such material is almost bizarrely counter-intuitive given the embarrassment of riches elsewhere.

[Roger Judd]

This probably a silly question to pose, but I will ask it anyway! If you don't like the way the BBC Singers sing, why do you put yourself through the ordeal of listening to them?

i listened last night primarily because I wanted to the hear the music, some of which I'd never heard before. Of course there are plenty of specialist groups of singers doing that repertoire - so what? You don't begrudge the LSO playing Haydn just because the OAE, or whoever, are a specialist band in that period/style of playing, or do you?

RJ

[MrGongGong]

This probably a silly question to pose, but I will ask it anyway! If you don't like the way the BBC Singers sing, why do you put yourself through the ordeal of listening to them?

A good question indeed

I'm looking forward to seeing all the regulars from CE at Cafe Oto this weekend

[DracoM]

Not 'begrudge', just don't like.

Like RJ, I listened because some of the material was unfamiliar.

The LSO etc play the big romantic and modern material expertly with a particular virtuosity, but I prefer the leaner, cleaner sound of smaller ensembles in Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven cf Mackerras / SCO.

Horses / courses?

[Gabriel Jackson]

They started out with good intentions, but as the programme unfolded, they slipped back further and further into the standard BBC Singers default ff > fff more or less throughout, brisk tempi, each section striving to outdo every other section to be heard - in other words singing like soloists - and it was actually a very, very dull concert, enlivened only by CB's comments / intros.

I don't have to be seen to be defending anyone, but let's see if these comments are ill-informed?
"They started out with good intentions" - what does this mean, that the performances of the pieces early in the programme were more to your liking?
"ff > fff more or less throughout" - simply not true.
"brisk tempi" - aren't the tempi the conductor's responsibility?!
"each section striving to outdo every other section to be heard" - simply not true, this is a ridiculous claim to make!

And I echo ardcarp to the syllable: this country has some of the finest Renaissance singing groups anywhere, from cathedrals to The Sixteen, Tallis Scholars, Stile Antico et al et al, backed by much research by specialist musicians into singing styles etc. Yet the BBC Singers still sing as if it was the 1950's. You really do expect them to break into 'Sing Something Simple' at any moment.

So you acknowledge that the performance styles of the groups cited are essentially a modern construct? Which therefore have no more claim to 'authenticity' than any other. And this concert WAS conducted by a "specialist musician" in this repertoire (who "did what he could", we were told earlier. Without being present at rehearsals or at the concert, how could anyone determine what Peter "did"?).

They are indeed brilliant sight-readers who can sing anything, but their niche market derives from their forte which is in particularly modern, usually difficult material from a relatively small group of composers that they have the time and resources to rehearse and master. Those composers now know what the BBC wants from them and can oblige with a performing ensemble that can encompass their every demand, such that it becomes a sort of circle of mutual advantage.

This is also nonsense! What the BBC wants from any composer it commissions is a piece by that composer, nothing more, nothing less.

Much of the time you feel they sing what they do because no-one else does / could sing it.

BBC ensembles across the board are able to programme all sorts of music, from all periods, which other orchestras or choral groups are not in a position to do, for all sorts of reasons. How is this a bad thing?

In its way, of course, this is very laudable, since it allows some contemporary composers to gain exposure. Numbers of the Singers may indeed sing for other ensembles, but then they adopt and adapt to local conditions.
Have you asked them?! However, when with the BBC Singers they similarly seem to adopt and adapt to the house style.

How do you know this?! Have you asked them?!

Which for a number of listeners is these days unacceptable. And before sentiments such as mine and others on this thread are rubbished as ill-informed etc, it needs to be remembered OTOH that a number of those supporting them are those who for a variety of reasons have to be seen to defend them. They may all be lovely people, they are indeed manifestly fine musicians, but something unfortunate happens when they become the BBC Singers.

I don't like their house style and never have, and particularly not in this repertoire. In the Renaissance field, to programme the BBC Singers to sing such material is almost bizarrely counter-intuitive given the embarrassment of riches elsewhere.

There is no "house style".

[Simon]

Views on the BBCS seem to split into two main camps.

The first is those who accept that they are very gifted musicians, but find their style soulless and nauseating. I'm in that group, along with my former DoM, and many others.

The second is those who work with them, or are otherwise involved, and many others.

I don't suppose for one moment that any amount of argument will change this a great deal, so in my view the best thing to do is accept it and move on.

As RJ said, if one doesn't like them, one needn't bother. That's why I didn't.

As to singing in St Paul's, well, there's another choral group that sings there, which fortunately can be heard quite regularly, and does a wonderful job across a whole range of repertoire...