Advent Service from St John's: 2 December, 4pm

[Simon]

Unfair on Rachmaninov?

[VodkaDilc]

I'm not joining in about Britten, but you must admit his good is better than Rutter's, and his less good not nearly as bad! There's no comparison, really, and I suspect Rutter (who sang in War Requiem as a boy) would be the first to admit that.

I'm not sure what is meant by "some not so" in connection with Britten's music. I can't think of any Britten which is substandard. I recently read a review of the new Hyperion recording of St Nicolas which was very dismissive of it. That shocked me; I got to know it as a teenager and thought it was wonderful. Since then I've conducted it twice and love every moment.

So what is this "lesser Britten"?

[Alison]

I must say I enjoyed the organ playing this year, an unassuming presence with nothing forced or too boisterous.

The whole formula came up very fresh and any lingering regrets over the recorded aspect were quickly swept aside.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I'm not sure what is meant by "some not so" in connection with Britten's music. I can't think of any Britten which is substandard. I recently read a review of the new Hyperion recording of St Nicolas which was very dismissive of it. That shocked me; I got to know it as a teenager and thought it was wonderful. Since then I've conducted it twice and love every moment.

So what is this "lesser Britten"?

I don't think many people would claim the Jubilate in C, for example, is a masterpiece. But not everything by Mozart is a masterpiece either...

[orbis factor]

?

[Mr Stoat]

............What pieces do you find 'good to sing'? I don't really understand his hold on the choral world, except that most of his stuff is easy.

.

fFom experience, I would say that his deceptively simple-looking arrangement of "Il est ne le Divin enfant" has some tricky moments.

[ardcarp]

Having been very taken with Ruttrer's arrangement of The Sans Day Carol when C for C II first appeared, my personal Rutter journey has wobbled. Born in a Stable so Bare and All things Bright and Beautiful found me reaching for emetics; but having seen the pleasure that his Gloria and Requiem give to both performers (some, not all) and to listeners (most) I have reached an equilibrium with his oeuvres. He is, firstly a very nice man who has never sought to be regarded as an equal of Britten, Stravinsky or whoever. He has a great talent as a tune-smith and a genius for the technical side of orchestration, vocal textures, not to mention choir-training (think Clare and Cambridge Singers). His music has brought delight to many thousands of 'soft' classics lovers, so someone's reference to Classic FM was probably appropriate. I find myself, instinctively, of the same mind as Mary C; and in her defence (I'm sure she doesn't need support from me anyway!) she has merely expressed a personal view.

Returning to St John's, I found myself less than wholly overwhelmed, though there was much to enjoy. I felt the back-desks a bit overpowering at times. They are probably 'pick of the bunch' of choral scholars but had a tendency to blast away. I thought James Long's Vigilate was a cracking piece and was given a cracking performance. On the other hand Willcocks' ' lovely arrangement of 'Tomorrow shall be my Dancing Day' lacked a certain lightness of touch. But from the service's halfway point, sensitivity seemed to settle in with the Ledger piece; and I thought the Rach Bogoroditse and the Martin Mag had some beautifully controlled dynamics and phrasing (I had no problem with their juxtaposition) and I was really transported by both performances.

John's chapel, especially when packed, does not have an overgenerous acoustic so maybe there is a tendency to try and fill the space with a big sound. Maybe the choir relaxed a bit after the initial 'pressure' of the occasion.

[DracoM]

I'd echo a lot of ardcarp's reactions to the singing.

In the St J's Advent format, that choir has to cover a huge spectrum of singing styles in one 90 minute service from plainchant to full on village church hymn leading and more or less everything between with multiple and tricksy syncopations, Orthodox gravity, some pretty dull Brahms, ascetic Palestrina, to pretty, nice but in this instance fairly inconsequential Rutter [ when set against e.g. his Gloria ], and get its heads round Ledger, Whitehead [ gospel choir stuff?] as well. Few of the modern composers we heard make significant separation between the parts such that we hear than as clearly as for example in the Palestrina and Ledger, where the trebles are written as lying quite bright and high and as it were clear of the undergrowth, and the other parts support, to the very dense Martin textures where the antiphony seems to be more between hard blocks of sound. Heard it a few times now and actually, it's a wonderful excuse to give the organ a terrific run out, as far as I can see and none the worse for that! All in all, this service format tends to mean that the trebles particularly have some hard work, but are made to 'sing hard' to get heard in the striving textures / voices around them.

This is not on the face of it a terribly vintage John's front line, and I began to wonder that if you are going to sing the kind of repertoire that this service drew upon, maybe your treble line needs more 'clout', more richness and depth of tone than we had, certainly against the kind of broken voice material we heard. I'm with ardcarp on this, and as others have said, the engineers had a pretty good grid to catch the many sounds, so it wasn't due to any failures anywhere in the technical support. And you have to say that that chapel with 400+ in, all in winter clothes, the acoustic is more or less dead, and the expectation sky-high. There are easier places to sing................!!

For me the altos were the outstanding section, showing greater stylistic sensitivity and agility than other section, and were certainly better than a woolly and pretty heavy-footed bass section who, I fear, when it came to a fairly stern test in the Rachmaninov, to my ears more or less went AWOL.

Agree with Alison that the organ playing was a joy.

Can someone help me here: apart from the John's tradition, why play Wachet auf which is so gently pastoral after what is inevitably a colossal final blast from every voice in the place? Always seems every year to be a huge anti-climax to me. Yes, I realise it's thoroughly Advent in sentiment, but it's just that my sense of theatre seems to be saying, 'give it wellie', send 'em out excited!

[Contre Bombarde]

Can someone help me here: apart from the John's tradition, why play Wachet auf which is so gently pastoral after what is inevitably a colossal final blast from every voice in the place? Always seems every year to be a huge anti-climax to me. Yes, I realise it's thoroughly Advent in sentiment, but it's just that my sense of theatre seems to be saying, 'give it wellie', send 'em out excited!

It is always a bit of an anti-climax in a similar vein to the Bach following 9 L & Cs from up the road on Christmas Eve. As these pieces are so well known they are stressful for the OS as although not especially difficult must be perfect in execution. In my OS days the "specified voluntary" was always the most nerve-wracking part of these events.

My congregation yesterday morning, most of whom stayed to listen, had the 1st Movement of Marcel Dupré's Symphonie-Passion after the service. Plenty of wellie...

[W.Kearns]

I remember singing Rutter's 'Dancing Day ' when I was at school in the late 1970s. It was, as far as I recall, a collection of graceful if slightly austere settings of mediaeval texts, many in Latin, with hardly a donkey, star or shepherd's pipe in sight. I enjoyed it very much.

Not sure that it represents mainstream Rutter nowadays though.

[Nick Armstrong]

Mary C... I feel a little guilty, I rather set you up for that barrage you received yesterday evening My ambivalent attitude to Mr Rutter - and indeed yesterday's service - is precisely expressed by ardcarp:

Having been very taken with Ruttrer's arrangement of The Sand Day Carol when C for C II first appeared, my personal Rutter journey has woobled. Born in a Stable so Bare and All things Bright and Beautiful found me reaching for emetics; but having seen the pleasure that his Gloria and Requiem give to both performers (some, not all) and to listeners (most) I have reached an equilibrium with his oeuvres. He is, firstly a very nice man who has never sought to be regarded as an equal of Britten, Stravinsky or whoever. He has a great talent as a tune-smith and a genius for the technical side of orchestration, vocal textures, not to mention choir-training (think Clare and Cambridge Singers). His music has brought delight to many thousands of 'soft' classics lovers, so someone's reference to Classic FM was probably appropriate. I find myself, instinctively, of the same mind as Mary C; and in her defence (I'm sure she doesn't need support from me anyway!) she has merely expressed a personal view.

Returning to St John's, I found myself less than wholly overwhelmed, though there was much to enjoy. I felt the back-desks a bit overpowering at times. They are probably 'pick of the bunch' of choral scholars but had a tendency to blast away. I thought James Long's Vigilate was a cracking piece and was given a cracking performance. On the other hand Willcocks' ' lovely arrangement of 'Tomorrow shall be my Dancing Day' lacked a certain lightness of touch. But from the service's halfway point, sensitivity seemed to settle in with the Ledger piece; and I thought the Rach Bogoroditse and the Martin Mag had some beautifully controlled dynamics and phrasing (I had no problem with their juxtaposition) and I was really transported by both performances.

John's chapel, especially when packed, does not have an overgenerous acoustic so maybe there is a tendency to try and fill the space with a big sound. Maybe the choir relaxed a bit after the initial 'pressure' of the occasion.

From emetic origins inspired by Donkeys and Shepherd's Pipes, I became aware of his qualities as a practical musician, and - when I heard "What Sweeter Music" one Christmas Eve at King's - as a composer. I think that particular piece is an absolute gem.

As to St John's, I agree about the heaviness of 'Dancing Day' (the offbeat 'punctuation' by the lower voices was hammered rather than danced) but broadly - after some sound issues in 'O Come O Come' where the organ drowned the congregation, I thought - got a lot out of it as the proper start to the "festive season"

[ardcarp]

why play Wachet auf?

... 'cos they always have done.

[Mary Chambers]

Mary C... I feel a little guilty, I rather set you up for that barrage you received yesterday evening

Don't worry! I am completely secure in my dislike of Rutter

What Sweeter Music - sugar as before, though admittedly skilful sugar

[ardcarp]

got a lot out of it as the proper start to the "festive season"

....it's s'posed to be a time of austerity, Calibs, watching and waiting and all that. There's another two weeks of it yet, so you can get rid of all that holly for a start. Mrs Ardcarp hasn't even put the sprouts on yet.

[Nick Armstrong]

....it's s'posed to be a time of austerity, Calibs, watching and waiting and all that. There's another two weeks of it yet, so you can get rid of all that holly for a start. Mrs Ardcarp hasn't even put the sprouts on yet.

Fair enough, but a bit of gathering in too... bottles and puddings and cakes and amazon orders... even if not consumed yet... Point taken about the holly!

Don't worry! I am completely secure in my dislike of Rutter

What Sweeter Music - sugar as before, though admittedly skilful sugar