Pronunciation of Latin

[Miles Coverdale]

My objection, pace Weiser and the other historical figures, is more of a "logical" nature: if the second half of v1 is inded a question, whence (!) the logic of it? It's a non sequitur. But if it is a statement, it's a perfectly natural thing with which to follow on.

I'm not sure I agree that it's a non-sequitur. The Psalmist raises his eyes despairingly to the hills, and asks, semi-rhetorically perhaps, where his help shall come from.

Using 'heavenward' certainly helps to make it a statement, for then it is logical that the Psalmist's help might come from there. But that is not what the original says. I think 'raise mine eyes to the hills' is a figure of speech denoting something akin to despair.

Here are the first 2 verses of the Campensis paraphrase:

1 I cast mine eyes about me, standing as it were upon an hill, if I might chance to see help to be brought me out of any place.
2 But I found no help to be looked for of men, but only from the Lord, which is the maker of heaven and earth.

Hebrew poetry, which frequently employs metaphor and allusion, can be difficult to translate and understand. A very good example of this is Ecclesiastes 12, vv. 1–4, which some will recognise as a particularly awful anthem by Steggall:

1 Remember now thy creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them:

2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease, because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened:

4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of music shall be brought low.

The first part of the passage, where the reader is exhorted to praise God while still in his youth and not to put it off until old age, is clear enough. However, it takes something of a leap of imagination to realise that the remainder of the passage is actually a metaphor for old age, and that ‘the keepers of the house’ are the hands, ‘the strong men’ are the legs, ‘the grinders’ are the teeth, ‘those that look out of the windows’ are the eyes and ‘the doors’ are the lips. ‘He shall rise up at the voice of the bird’ refers to the insomnia of old age and ‘all the daughters of music shall be brought low’ either to a failure of the breathing or to deafness.

[decantor]

This discussion brings back happy memories. Once a week the school met for Latin Prayers. There were two psalms, which alternated week by week. I can still remember them. One was (forgive my somewhat crude attempt at phonetic spelling, here "ie" is pronounced as in "lie"):

Ad tee levayvie ocyulose mayose, quie habitas in seelis.
Ecce siecut ocyulie servorum in manibus dominorum suorum, ieter ocyulie nostrie ad Dominum Dayum nostrum, doenec miseriaytur nostrie.)

This is the traditional English pronounciation.

D-G, I had quite forgotten - that is exactly the pronunciation that we used in singing the School Song: so we were trilingual, and didn't bat an eyelid over it. It is also the pronunciation my father used, and he had left the same school twenty-five years before I joined. That 'traditional' method no doubt lingers yet in some corners - grace at High Table, no doubt.

Having no Hebrew, I cannot comment usefully on the thread's latest developments. However, following up MC's lead from Ecclesiastes, I came across more of the same. Fascinating stuff - and all because of my casual remark that LEVAVI was the 'wrong' tense!

[Simon]

A leap of imagination indeed, but once the hint is there... well, well, well! What a delight. Many thanks for that, MC.

Thanks also for taking the time to show the Campensis paraphrase. I'd still instinctively lean towards statement rather than question, but I'm happy to accept your view.

I have to take issue with you on the Steggall anthem, though. How can you call that lovely Victorian piece "awful"?

[Miles Coverdale]

A leap of imagination indeed, but once the hint is there... well, well, well! What a delight. Many thanks for that, MC.

Thanks also for taking the time to show the Campensis paraphrase. I'd still instinctively lean towards statement rather than question, but I'm happy to accept your view.

I have to take issue with you on the Steggall anthem, though. How can you call that lovely Victorian piece "awful"?

You're welcome.

Re. the Steggall, quite easily, I'm afraid. Turgid Victoriana at its absolute worst - I simply can't stand it.

Another piece of psalm trivia: Many people will know that Ps. 119 is divided into 22 eight-verse sections, each of which is headed by a letter of the Hebrew alphabet (or alephbeth, as some have called it). What is not well known, as far as I can tell, is that each verse in a section begins with the letter that heads the section. Thus, the first eight verses all begin with Aleph, the second eight with Beth, and so on. I've never seen a translation which reflects this acrostic, and an attempt might be unduly contrived.

[ardcarp]

I've never seen a translation which reflects this acrostic, and an attempt might be unduly contrived.

Your esteemed namesake obviously bottled out! But his is still the best IMO. Instilled in me from childhood, his glorious words are always with me and a source of joy, solace and often amusement.

[yorks_bass]

Amazing. I'd never have dreamed of anything quite so different as this, especially the long i sound.

Here's (a rough phonetic version of) what we would have done for the first line, which is what I understood to be Church Latin:

Ad tay levarvi occulos meos, kwi habitas in chaylis.

Any more versions from around the country?

Well I might take exception to the diphthongs, and indeed the 'h', but otherwise much in keeping with what I'd think of as 'Church Latin'.

Entirely agree about Steggall - one of my favourites. Currently waiting for delivery of a CD from York Minster containing said track.

[Miles Coverdale]

Your esteemed namesake obviously bottled out! But his is still the best IMO. Instilled in me from childhood, his glorious words are always with me and a source of joy, solace and often amusement.

He almost certainly wasn't aware of it for, by his own admission, he had no Greek or Hebrew, but relied on German and Latin models.

Speaking of amusing, one of his translations that makes me smile is in Ps. 8, v. 5. The BCP version is 'Thou madest him lower than the angels ...' but in his 1540 version, which is solely based on the Vulgate, we have the delightfully pedantic 'Thou madest him somewhat inferior than the angels'. Always makes me think of John Major for some reason.