Sumptuous in G from Hereford

[Simon Biazeck]

One positive I take from this conversation is the discovery of James MacMillan's setting of the canticles of which, before today, I was unaware. IMHO the greatest living composer. His St John Passion is just wonderful and his small and simple stuff -O Radiant Dawn for example, which is included in NOËL!3,- is glorious too. A few more settings from him and I'll gladly sacrifice Murril in E!

Really??!! I'm sorry you seem to be runner up there, Gabriel - not intentional, I'm sure!

There is certainly some fine work being done, by Matthew Martin, for example, who always comes up with original and engaging settings of text, and whose organ writing is practically matchless, as you would expect from such a fine player.

And whilst we are plugging the new and unknown, SHORTER HOUSE has published three volumes of New Canticles in the last couple of years alongside new Responses and a volume called Sing Evensong, which has everything for that service in one book, including very straightforward and well crafted settings of the Mag. & Nunc - Ben Parry's springs most immediately to mind.

http://www.shorterhouse.com/

[mopsus]

I'm glad to have found out that I'm not the only one who finds Wood, Sumsion and Murrill a waste of space! (I would also add quite a lot of Bairstow, but that may really be a minority opinion!) I haven't often dared to venture my opinions in this area for fear they would be totally at odds with majority views (earlier this autumn I sang Murrill in E twice in 8 days with different choirs).

I know other singers have had the same experience as me - moving on from college choirs and then unable to find a church choir with an interesting repertoire. No one is going to be attracted by the prospect of singing Arnold in A. All too often these singers end up being lost to church music altogether apart from perhaps the occasional cathedral weekend.

(While on this subject, I'd add Philip Moore's services to the list of those which deserve a lasting place in the repertoire.)

[Jamiewhall]

Really??!! I'm sorry you seem to be runner up there, Gabriel - not intentional, I'm sure!

There is certainly some fine work being done, by Matthew Martin, for example, who always comes up with original and engaging settings of text, and whose organ writing is practically matchless, as you would expect from such a fine player.

And whilst we are plugging the new and unknown, SHORTER HOUSE has published three volumes of New Canticles in the last couple of years alongside new Responses and a volume called Sing Evensong, which has everything for that service in one book, including very straightforward and well crafted settings of the Mag. & Nunc - Ben Parry's springs most immediately to mind.

http://www.shorterhouse.com/

Thanks for the link, Simon. These volumes certainly look interesting with a good mix of composers. It's probably not unfair to say that these are largely the Sumsions and Brewers of our time and not the mainstream but I for one think that's no bad thing. Long may talented musicians continue to write purely liturgical music with no thought of the concert hall. If that sounds at all negative, it's not supposed to be. I'm just trying to make a point within the wider discussion.

[secret squirrel]

Today is the 15th Evening - hooray !!!

For any who would rather Arnold in A on such an occasion, I am afraid Guildford Cathedral had Noble in b and Bairstow's Blessed City

It was Old Choristers' Day, but still, the 15 Eve was top trumps for me!

SS

[Simon Biazeck]

Thanks for the link, Simon. These volumes certainly look interesting with a good mix of composers. It's probably not unfair to say that these are largely the Sumsions and Brewers of our time and not the mainstream but I for one think that's no bad thing. Long may talented musicians continue to write purely liturgical music with no thought of the concert hall. If that sounds at all negative, it's not supposed to be. I'm just trying to make a point within the wider discussion.

I quite agree! It doesn't sound negative to me, rather thoughtful and balanced. There is much to be said for the home-grown fare - it comes from the heart. Time will tell what the masterpieces of the future are long after we are gone, and as far I am concerned there is space for all approaches. I'm quite happy to be challenged by 'The Shock Of The New' and soothed by the familiar.

[Philip]

Today is the 15th Evening - hooray !!!

For any who would rather Arnold in A on such an occasion, I am afraid Guildford Cathedral had Noble in b and Bairstow's Blessed City

It was Old Choristers' Day, but still, the 15 Eve was top trumps for me!

SS

I trust you got the entirety of Psalm 78?! I went to Southwell and very much enjoyed the journey through the 73 verses, with some wonderful word-painting from both organ and choir. Harris in A was eminently forgettable, Parry 'My soul, there is a country' more than made up for that.

Bairstow 'Blessed city' is wonderful, a fine piece with wonderful moments of drama and a gorgeous ending.

[secret squirrel]

Oh yes... all of them and very well it (psalm and the service generally) was sung and accompanied too (massed choir with old boys and girls and former lay-clerks to boot!).

What with all this (positive) talk of the modern [settings etc] it is nice to see centuries-old tradition alive and well alongside; long live the 15th Evening!

SS

[Simon]

It's an interesting idea, that composers won't bother writing "just" for the church if they can't get the works performed at concerts too. How fortunate that, over the years, many of the greatest haven't thought along these lines. For me, it was a wonderful honour to have a small composition performed AMDG in a service setting, short and insignificant though it was.

As for Murrill in E - which we as trebles thoroughly enjoyed and I still do - maybe we'd better let the DoMs around the country know how badly written it is, then they'll probably stop doing it. How strange that so many first-rate musicians have been fooled for 60 odd years!

[ardcarp]

Having just scanned through all the posts on this thread, I feel that no-one (not even GJ) has made the distinction between (a) works written by composers who are principally composers..the Brittens, VWs, etc and (b) works written by in-post O&Cs..the Sumsions, Brewers, Bullocks, etc.

The latter were probably never regarded by their creators as 'great masterpieces', but were useful, well-crafted bits of liturgical music which have nevertheless become staples of a rather narrow little repertoire of the Anglican church. This is not to rubbish them in any way. They are clearly well-loved by many (especially those who sang them as I did as a kid) and they serve a useful purpose. In the 20th century, O&Cs were appointed for their O&C abilities (mainly 'O' actually) not as composers. This was not always thus; up to and including the Purcell-Croft-Greene-Boyce era, it was de rigeur that holders of the great posts (Wabbey, St Pauls, The Chapels Royal) were expected to write much of what was performed.

The greatest church music of the 20th century on the other hand was written by non post-holders (VW, Howells, Walton, Britten,, Harvey,Tippett)
...and only time will tell who are the 'greats' of the 21st century.

Maybe a major cathedral post might be given to a composer one day?

[Gabriel Jackson]

It's an interesting idea, that composers won't bother writing "just" for the church if they can't get the works performed at concerts too.

It's not a question of not bothering, all composers want performances, and if a piece is doable in concerts, it will get more performances.

How fortunate that, over the years, many of the greatest haven't thought along these lines.

Like Herbert Sumsion?

For me, it was a wonderful honour to have a small composition performed AMDG in a service setting, short and insignificant though it was.

As for Murrill in E - which we as trebles thoroughly enjoyed and I still do - maybe we'd better let the DoMs around the country know how badly written it is, then they'll probably stop doing it. How strange that so many first-rate musicians have been fooled for 60 odd years!

Maybe you might ask them? More than one distinguished director of music has the same view as me.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Having just scanned through all the posts on this thread, I feel that no-one (not even GJ) has made the distinction between (a) works written by composers who are principally composers..the Brittens, VWs, etc and (b) works written by in-post O&Cs..the Sumsions, Brewers, Bullocks, etc.

The latter were probably never regarded by their creators as 'great masterpieces', but were useful, well-crafted bits of liturgical music which have nevertheless become staples of a rather narrow little repertoire of the Anglican church. This is not to rubbish them in any way. They are clearly well-loved by many (especially those who sang them as I did as a kid) and they serve a useful purpose. In the 20th century, O&Cs were appointed for their O&C abilities (mainly 'O' actually) not as composers. This was not always thus; up to and including the Purcell-Croft-Greene-Boyce era, it was de rigeur that holders of the great posts (Wabbey, St Pauls, The Chapels Royal) were expected to write much of what was performed.

The greatest church music of the 20th century on the other hand was written by non post-holders (VW, Howells, Walton, Britten,, Harvey,Tippett)
...and only time will tell who are the 'greats' of the 21st century.

Maybe a major cathedral post might be given to a composer one day?

Er...yes I did! That the best music written for the church is by composers who are principally composers was precisely the point of my original post!

[Wolsey]

Having just scanned through all the posts on this thread, I feel that no-one (not even GJ) has made the distinction between (a) works written by composers who are principally composers..the Brittens, VWs, etc and (b) works written by in-post O&Cs..the Sumsions, Brewers, Bullocks, etc.

Post 42?

[ardcarp]

Sorry, GJ, my scanning was inadequate and you do indeed in #42, make the case that 'proper' composers cut the mustard. But I have to say in that same post you are rather cruel to the Sumsions of this world; and my point is that their output is much-loved by many and serves a useful purpose. I have just listened on R3 to one of the programmes celebrating John Cage's centenary. This is a reductio ad absurdum I know, but had he crafted a (possibly silent) set of evening canticles, I suspect most D&Cs, O&Cs not to mention the poor bloody infantry would probably opt for Herbert every time!

[Gabriel Jackson]

Sorry, GJ, my scanning was inadequate and you do indeed in #42, make the case that 'proper' composers cut the mustard. But I have to say in that same post you are rather cruel to the Sumsions of this world; and my point is that their output is much-loved by many and serves a useful purpose. I have just listened on R3 to one of the programmes celebrating John Cage's centenary. This is a reductio ad absurdum I know, but had he crafted a (possibly silent) set of evening canticles, I suspect most D&Cs, O&Cs not to mention the poor bloody infantry would probably opt for Herbert every time!

My washing machine serves a useful purpose and gives pleasure (that of clean clothes) but I wouldn't choose to listen to it in preference to Bach, or Debussy, or Stravinsky (or Tallis, Purcell or Howells...). Interestingly, some decades ago Howells was complaining that not enough of the major composers of the day were writing liturgical music. While things have undoubtedly changed for the better in that respect, it is great shame that we don't have pieces from many of today's best and most interesting composers, either because they are not asked, or they don't want to write for the church. The only truly great composer to have written a set of evening canticles in modern times is Michael Tippett and he produced the only masterpiece composed for the Anglican church since the war.

[french frank]

My washing machine serves a useful purpose and gives pleasure (that of clean clothes) but I wouldn't choose to listen to it in preference to Bach, or Debussy, or Stravinsky (or Tallis, Purcell or Howells...).

If you want the pleasure of clean clothes, I doubt whether Bach, Debussy or Stravinsky would be any more useful than Sumsion. Or are you wickedly implying that your washing machine would enhance Choral Evensong more pleasurably than the music of Sumsion et al.?