Sumptuous in G from Hereford

[Gabriel Jackson]

Oh, I'm sure you'll get there in your own good time.

You could ask around the various foundations, though, which might help you on your way.

I'll take that as a no, then (to my request for enlightenment).

[Jamiewhall]

And that is the crux of the problem! The best liturgical music has always been written by the best composers of the day, and latterly that has meant professional composers who have careers in the concert hall and who happen to write church as well - figures like Stanford, Howells, Walton, Tippett, Britten and, more recently, Jonathan Harvey, Judith Weir, James MacMillan etc. Why anyone bothers with Sumsion(s) in G or Brewer in D is quite beyond me.

I think there's probably enough room in the cathedral choir calendar to accommodate the likes of Sumsion and Brewer in D if for no other reason than if you schedule the complete works of all the composers mentioned above, you'll probably fill about a month. Plus I'd imagine even the most gifted of choir trainers would appreciate being able to fill up the week with Wood, Murril and Bairstow to leave a bit of extra rehearsal time for Tippett at the weekend.
Still, that's no excuse for Darke in A minor.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I think there's probably enough room in the cathedral choir calendar to accommodate the likes of Sumsion and Brewer in D if for no other reason than if you schedule the complete works of all the composers mentioned above, you'll probably fill about a month. Plus I'd imagine even the most gifted of choir trainers would appreciate being able to fill up the week with Wood, Murril and Bairstow to leave a bit of extra rehearsal time for Tippett at the weekend.
Still, that's no excuse for Darke in A minor.

But there's lots of easy music that doesn't need loads of rehearsal that's not rubbish!

[Jamiewhall]

But there's lots of easy music that doesn't need loads of rehearsal that's not rubbish!

It's always going to be a matter of taste. There are plenty of pieces that would go into the shredder were I ever to run a church choir, and a number of those from proper composers, but I'd keep many of the settings talked about in this thread. As you've mentioned Brewer in D, that's actually a personal favourite. It has personal historical significance and it feels like a genuine if not inspired offering. Great music it isn't but it's at least fit for purpose. If it wasn't it wouldn't have lasted so long. That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to think it's crap.

[Miles Coverdale]

Stainer in Bb flat anyone?

In what sense? As a candidate for the bonfire? Dreadful nonsense.

[Philip]

I think there's probably enough room in the cathedral choir calendar to accommodate the likes of Sumsion and Brewer in D if for no other reason than if you schedule the complete works of all the composers mentioned above, you'll probably fill about a month. Plus I'd imagine even the most gifted of choir trainers would appreciate being able to fill up the week with Wood, Murril and Bairstow to leave a bit of extra rehearsal time for Tippett at the weekend.

Tippett...shudder. If thats proper music, I'll keep my Sumsion and Brewer dross thank you.

As it happens I'm accompanying Brew-up in D on Sunday evening, and I'm looking forward to it, as I always do. It is thoroughly pleasant and uplifting, and I find the organ accompaniment to be a perfect fit for it. Tenors love it too, mostly for the top G at the end.

With the best will in the world, no Cathedral choir can sing tricky music every day, and to keep the daily rhythm of services going you need something more straightforward every now and then. Parish choirs also need to keep things relatively simple, due to the abilities of the musicians involved. I think this is a particular feature of the Wood settings - particularly the D major setting which is mostly very straightforward. However, it is lovely stuff and works really well. There are two E flat settings - No. 2 has some Tuba honking in the Mag and finishes with the tenors high in the register - good fun (as featured at St Thomas this week). Moeran in D is another dead easy setting, but again very pleasant.

Wood in F (Coll Reg) I find very dull though I'm afraid, just doesn't seem to go anywhere. The Gloria is the best bit by some distance. Ireland in F similarly. Stainer in B flat has its moments. Murrill in E is great, Bairstow in D is good fun (not easy though) and Sumsion I've covered earlier.

Gabriel's list is interesting. Stanford and Howells are the two outstanding names in the field, I agree, and reached greatness unsurpassed (Howells Gloucester gets my vote for greatest ever). Of the others on that list, Walton's only attempt wouldn't get anywhere near a list of my favourites, Britten never bothered, Tippett I can't abide, MacMillan's setting is weird (strange organ interludes), not sure about Weir or Harvey.

I suppose it depends how you view these things. The sung canticles are part of the liturgy, a musical response to the readings that precede them, and so probably shouldn't be a musical show. You shouldn't judge the music in the same way as you do at a concert. Moreover, an over-ambitious and badly sung attempt at something complicated like Tippett detracts from rather than enhances worship. A choir that can sing Brewer in D with great musicality and enhance the worship by doing so is infinitely preferable to a choir that makes a mess of something much more complex.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Tippett...shudder. If thats proper music, I'll keep my Sumsion and Brewer dross thank you.

Of course it's proper music!

With the best will in the world, no Cathedral choir can sing tricky music every day, and to keep the daily rhythm of services going you need something more straightforward every now and then.

There is plenty of music (from all periods) that is good, and not hard.

Murrill in E is great,

Murrill in E is a terrible piece, and not particularly well written for voices.

Gabriel's list is interesting. Stanford and Howells are the two outstanding names in the field, I agree, and reached greatness unsurpassed (Howells Gloucester gets my vote for greatest ever). Of the others on that list, Walton's only attempt wouldn't get anywhere near a list of my favourites, Britten never bothered, Tippett I can't abide, MacMillan's setting is weird (strange organ interludes), not sure about Weir or Harvey.

It wasn't a list of canticle settings, but a (partial) list of composers whose work is superior, in my view, largely because they were/are composers who sometimes wrote/write church music, but who had/have careers as professional composers in the wider world.

I suppose it depends how you view these things. The sung canticles are part of the liturgy, a musical response to the readings that precede them, and so probably shouldn't be a musical show.

Are they a response to the readings that precede them?!

You shouldn't judge the music in the same way as you do at a concert.

Why not? What can enhance worship more than great music?

Moreover, an over-ambitious and badly sung attempt at something complicated like Tippett detracts from rather than enhances worship.

While it's beyond the reach of some choirs, the Tippett isn't that hard (apart from a nasty entry for the trebles at "he remembering..." and you need four good soloists for the Nunc Dimittis)...it's very skilfully written in that respect. But then, he was a great composer...

[Alison]

Sumsion in G I hear as gentle, humble music in a certain english tradition, well capable of bringing

some believers closer to God.

It wouldn't stand up too well in the concert hall. I imagine that's what Philip meant in his gentle and humble post.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Tippett...shudder. If thats proper music, I'll keep my Sumsion and Brewer dross thank you.

You're welcome.

[Jamiewhall]

There is plenty of music (from all periods) that is good, and not hard.

Out of interest, Gabriel, can you suggest a few canticle settings that fall into this category. Between the easy dross and the classy mainstream I'm struggling to think of many other settings. Perhaps you could suggest a fortnight's worth? It's always interesting to hear what music other musicians rate.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Out of interest, Gabriel, can you suggest a few canticle settings that fall into this category. Between the easy dross and the classy mainstream I'm struggling to think of many other settings. Perhaps you could suggest a fortnight's worth? It's always interesting to hear what music other musicians rate.

Off the top of my head, without thinking too hard about this (not enough time right now...!), there are, as you know, plenty of Tudor Short Services (and some verse or full services) that aren't difficult, and are good. Howells in G is the most straightforward of his services (that I know)...more recently, the actual notes of the Arvo Part Magnificat are not difficult (the Nunc Dimittis is more elaborate, of course). For trebles, Howard Skempton's Edinburgh Service has a few deceptive moments, where the line doesn't quite go where you think it might, but isn't difficult in the main. It's for others to decide whether it's any good or not, but my own Truro Service gets done a lot, bcause it's not difficult and is, I'm told, useful for unaccompanied days.

[Jamiewhall]

Off the top of my head, without thinking too hard about this (not enough time right now...!), there are, as you know, plenty of Tudor Short Services (and some verse or full services) that aren't difficult, and are good. Howells in G is the most straightforward of his services (that I know)...more recently, the actual notes of the Arvo Part Magnificat are not difficult (the Nunc Dimittis is more elaborate, of course). For trebles, Howard Skempton's Edinburgh Service has a few deceptive moments, where the line doesn't quite go where you think it might, but isn't difficult in the main. It's for others to decide whether it's any good or not, but my own Truro Service gets done a lot, bcause it's not difficult and is, I'm told, useful for unaccompanied days.

I'm certainly on board with the various tudor settings and the others are very worthy but this doesn't convince me to abandon the organists' offerings. Without Watson in E and Kelway in A minor we'd have to sing/hear Weelkes Short at least twice a month and I'm not sure even I could cope with that. Variety is key for me. Plus there's something comforting in being able to complain "what? Sumsion in A? Again?" and then secretly enjoy it.
All that said, I wish more of our current great choral composers would write functional settings of the canticles. There's certainly a gap for new settings of the Te Deum.

Strangely I have yet to sing or hear your Truro Service, Gabriel. Look forward to it.

[Gabriel Jackson]

I'm certainly on board with the various tudor settings and the others are very worthy but this doesn't convince me to abandon the organists' offerings. Without Watson in E and Kelway in A minor we'd have to sing/hear Weelkes Short at least twice a month and I'm not sure even I could cope with that.

Watson in E is certainly a better piece than Murrill's in the same key...

Variety is key for me. Plus there's something comforting in being able to complain "what? Sumsion in A? Again?" and then secretly enjoy it.
All that said, I wish more of our current great choral composers would write functional settings of the canticles. There's certainly a gap for new settings of the Te Deum.

Strangely I have yet to sing or hear your Truro Service, Gabriel. Look forward to it.

I'm sure it will be foisted on you somewhere eventually, Jamie!
I agree about useful, functional canticle settings but I suspect the reasons they tend not to get written are a) composers don't get asked for that (my Truro Service was written to a very specific brief from Andrew Nethsingha...) and b) composers may not necessarily be too keen on writing pieces (canticles) which are not, by and large, likely to be done in concerts (which anthems are, of course).

I do think it's a shame that, given many places still have a regular trebles only service, the two best settings - Howard Skempton's and Diana Burrell's - are done so rarely.

[Philip]

If the canticles aren't a response to the readings, what are they for? I see them in that context, and I don't think the Tippett setting works here. Walton's 'Chichester Service' is very near the boundary as well.

I agree that there is much earlier music which we haven't mentioned which is well worth hearing. I think the best examples are the two Gibbons Services - his unaccompanied 'Short' service and the verse-style Second Service, both of which are wonderful as exemplars of that style. The former is straightforward, the latter not quite so much.

Howells in G, one of his earliest...absolutely, providing you give yourself enough time to wallow in the glorious end to the Mag. As Howells goes, Coll Reg isn't too tricky either, but beyond that it gets more difficult. I like Tavener's Coll Reg setting if you want something modern, but its far from easy. Likewise Leighton's Magdalen College service.

It is fine to talk about Cathedrals, but once you go down to Parish Church level (with a few notable exceptions) then the singers aren't as able, and Tippett, Walton, Leighton etc would be way out of reach.

I agree with your last point Gabriel about current composers - unless you get commissioned by a DOM there probably isn't much appeal in writing an Evensong setting as it will only ever get performed in a church setting (and heard on R3 every once in a while!). The Sumsions and Brewers of this world wrote their settings knowing that they would never get heard outside the church walls. I guess it is a question of differing tastes, but nothing I've seen on this thread so far has persuaded me that I shouldn't continue to enjoy the likes of Sumsion and Murrill. I certainly think they have something to say and can make a positive contribution to a worship experience at Evensong.

[Jamiewhall]

Watson in E is certainly a better piece than Murrill's in the same key...


I'm sure it will be foisted on you somewhere eventually, Jamie!
I agree about useful, functional canticle settings but I suspect the reasons they tend not to get written are a) composers don't get asked for that (my Truro Service was written to a very specific brief from Andrew Nethsingha...) and b) composers may not necessarily be too keen on writing pieces (canticles) which are not, by and large, likely to be done in concerts (which anthems are, of course).

I do think it's a shame that, given many places still have a regular trebles only service, the two best settings - Howard Skempton's and Diana Burrell's - are done so rarely.

One positive I take from this conversation is the discovery of James MacMillan's setting of the canticles of which, before today, I was unaware. IMHO the greatest living composer. His St John Passion is just wonderful and his small and simple stuff -O Radiant Dawn for example, which is included in NOËL!3,- is glorious too. A few more settings from him and I'll gladly sacrifice Murril in E!